Scott, I think others have already provided sufficient comments regarding the benefits hardware redundancy vs standby routers. We have both. Hardware redundancy in a GSR, router redundancy with another GSR in a separate geographical location. Continuous operation (hardware redundancy) in the event of a failure is our goal, but we're smart enough to realize we still need a backup for our backup (router redundancy).
Look up Cisco's Nonstop Forwarding for more info regarding Travis' comment about the ability to lose an RSP/CPU and still forward traffic. -- Blake Covarrubias On Nov 3, 2010, at 17:26, Scott Reed <[email protected]> wrote: > OK, elaborate on how 2 distinct identical boxes is not hardware redundancy. > I think by the definition of redundancy, it is 100%. Webster: characterized > by similarity or repetition <a group of particularly redundant brick buildings > > On 11/3/2010 6:45 PM, Blake Covarrubias wrote: >> >> Jeff, >> >> VXRs and down. Not GSR's and up. I wasn't entirely clear in my last message. >> Like Travis I was also commenting about the Cisco GSR / 12000 platform. I'm >> well aware of the performance of a Linux box compared to a VXR. We run a few >> VXR routers in our network in addition to GSR's, BSD routers, and MikroTik. >> >> What you're describing really isn't true hardware redundancy. I'm also well >> aware of BGP and its use in a multi-homed environment. We have two separate >> GSRs acting as our edge routers. One in California, one in Arizona. Both >> routers have multiple eBGP peers, and run iBGP between them. They're >> connected by a series of licensed microwave radios with about 155mbps of >> bandwidth between the two. We'll be supplementing that link with a dedicated >> GigE fiber link in the coming months. >> >> I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding bridging between two >> connections. There's no requirement to run a bridged network in order to >> operate iBGP. >> >> I have no doubt Quagga works well in some BGP applications. We don't use it >> because we have requirements for performance & uptime which a Linux/BSD box >> cannot currently meet. We provide voice (TDM) and data services for >> companies in various industries such as mining, manufacturing, aerospace, >> defense, energy, cellular, and even other ISPs. We literally cannot afford >> to wrestle with the issues others on this list experience. If its not >> reliable we replace it. We don't have a problem paying for reliability. >> >> -- >> Blake Covarrubias >> >> On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote: >> >>> Hi Blake, >>> >>> I’m not sure what sort of speeds you think Linux limits out at, but I >>> believe you might be surprised at how much throughput you can get. We >>> generally blow the doors off of the VXRs and down. >>> >>> There are two different ways of getting hardware redundancy. One is with a >>> massively expensive single box, like the Cisco. The other is to set up >>> redundant hardware…which is particularly good in a BGP application. You >>> can have a relatively inexpensive router on each circuit, set up iBGP and >>> VRRP between the boxes, and BGP between the peers. That way, if you lose >>> anything, all the in and outbound traffic fails to the other unit(s). This >>> also allows for geographic separation of the routers. If you can bridge >>> between the routers, you can have them in completely different >>> locations…thus keeping your network running if something really nasty >>> happens. >>> >>> I can’t speak for the other companies, but ImageStream has been handling >>> BGP for around 10 years. We use Quagga currently and we’ve found it to be >>> very stable, as our customers on-list have attested. It’s one of our top >>> applications. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jeff >>> ImageStream >>> 800-813-5123 x106 >>> >>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >>> Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:31 AM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS >>> >>> Hardware redundancy, wire speed packet forwarding, support for more >>> Interface types, and more widely tested & stable software. >>> >>> I'll use a MikroTik, Linux, or BSD box as an aggregation router any day; >>> terminate some VLANs, act as an MPLS CE, perform QoS marking, and >>> participate in an OSPF area. Probably nothing more. The level of hardware >>> redundancy & wire-speed forwarding isn't there for my needs. >>> >>> If you're just knocking IOS, I realize it isn't the wave of the future. >>> Cisco does too & has developed IOS XR. >>> >>> Linux, MikroTik, and I'm sure Vyatta & ImageStream are great platforms. >>> They compete well with Cisco in some areas...others not so much. Use what's >>> appropriate. >>> >>> -- >>> Blake Covarrubias >>> >>> On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:04, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I’m curious Travis…not looking for an argument. >>>> >>>> What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based originally) >>>> to a hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, Vyatta, whatever)? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> ImageStream >>>> 800-813-5123 x106 >>>> >>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >>>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS >>>> >>>> Tom, >>>> >>>> I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't >>>> compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built >>>> from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco >>>> 12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap... >>>> the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool >>>> to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and >>>> have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card). >>>> Same goes for the route fabric card. ;) >>>> >>>> We use Mikrotik for our inside "core" router and this big Cisco for our >>>> border router to our BGP upstreams. I have slept very well for the last >>>> 1.5 years knowing everything in the box is fully redundant (CPU, route, >>>> power, etc.). :) >>>> >>>> Travis >>>> Microserv >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/2/2010 9:04 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: >>>>> Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream >>>>> and >>>>> Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers. >>>>> >>>>> I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom >>>>> modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use latest >>>>> Quagga. >>>>> That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont recommend >>>>> that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of >>>>> Linux. >>>>> Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Science >>>>> project, rebooting it all the time to test script changes.) But once you >>>>> are >>>>> comfortable with your Distro, it works well. >>>>> >>>>> There are a million arguements "for" and "against" Cisco versus Linux, to >>>>> be >>>>> used for the ISPs' average NOC/POP router/switch. I dont dispute any of >>>>> the >>>>> arguements. But one area where I believe Linux stands tall, is as a CORE >>>>> BGP >>>>> router. A core BGP router can be one of the more simplistic configured >>>>> routers because it only really needs to perform one function, BGP routing >>>>> to >>>>> its connected peers. For BGP there are two critical needs.... Fast >>>>> processors and Lots of RAM. In todays world there is no excuse to not have >>>>> both of those. The problem with Cisco is that it lacks both, unless you >>>>> pay >>>>> big bucks. Linux on the other hand has an abundance of both, when combined >>>>> with PC-Like hardware. >>>>> >>>>> I laugh at my competitors, when they say, "oh no, BGP reset, had to >>>>> reload >>>>> BGP tables, now there is latency for like 3 minutes or compromised routing >>>>> for that period" or "got a route problem, the small prefixes aren't in my >>>>> tables". . On Linux, if you want to restart BGP, well thats like 1 second >>>>> to >>>>> reload tables. And no need to drop any routes, unless you want to. You >>>>> could >>>>> have Full routes with like 30 peers from a single router, if you wanted >>>>> to. >>>>> You can load up Linux with like 32 NICs (qty8 4port GIG NICs) in a 2U >>>>> case, >>>>> if you want to, and dont even need a Switch. (Although new will cost you >>>>> about $430 per 4port PCI-E Gig NIC). >>>>> >>>>> Tom DeReggi >>>>> RapidDSL& Wireless, Inc >>>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kristian Hoffmann"<[email protected]> >>>>> To: "WISPA General List"<[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:37 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 2010-11-02 at 18:52 -0500, Scott Lambert wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I still need to try a Vyatta system. >>>>>> I loathe the idea of managing a *nix distro on a router (which is why we >>>>>> use RouterOS now). Apparently I've had too much Tik-aid, because I had >>>>>> completely forgotten about Vyatta and similar options. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have a SuperMicro 5015A-H (Atom 330 dual-core) coming in tomorrow. >>>>>> I'm going to try RouterOS and Vyatta and see how BGP responds on each >>>>>> with a single feed. If anyone else has an x86-based distro they'd like >>>>>> to see performance on, let me know. >>>>>> >>>>>> And thanks for all the responses. The information has been very >>>>>> helpful. Unfortunately, the conclusion I came to is "I have no idea >>>>>> what I'm going to do." Cisco = $$$ and MikroTik = coin flip. Hopefully >>>>>> Vyatta lands somewhere in the middle. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> -Kristian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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