Comments below - and good night:) -- Alex Kac, CEO/Developer
Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management http://www.pocketinformant.com/ zoomzoom > From: "[Gauthier]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:29:37 +0200 > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Pushing the E:nvelope ;-) > > Just some comments (before going sleep...) > >> I personally prefer actually using a language like C# or even Java >> instead of the "meta tag" language because I just a more comfortable >> with it now (being in C++ day in and out), but the Tango Meta tag >> language is very powerful in a lot of places. > > The metatag is from my point the best for web developments, it's allow you > to place your instruction just anywhere where more syntaxic language force > you to enclose the instructions into some kind of delimitators. I also agree > that for other kind of developments (that has nothing to do with web > developments) syntaxic language is more effective and I expect some > incredible possibilities from the WISP (wich will allow you to communicate > with virtually any language and the Witango server from what I've understand > from my investigation) I agree - but there are a lot of places where currently tango requires metatag usage and I'd prefer to do java/c/c#, etc... coding. Anything that requires a lot of processing like string manipulation, math, or even lots of array work - is cleaner using a programming language rather than web meta tags. >> OK, so I know that due to the carbonization effort Phil and company are >> doing, its amazing the Mac editor even exists :) But I kinda feel they >> would have been better off just writing the editor in Cocoa in java or >> ObjC from scratch. They would have gained so much from that. > > As I don't have a mac user experience, I only know that carbon is a shared > library across the new os and olders, it's surely a matter of development > costs as well as the need to keep the editor running on olders macs (I don't > know the ratios of OS usage on mac). Tis true that Carbon lets you write to both - but its also a lot more work than Cocoa. And I'd be willing to bet that more Mac users that are intersted in doing web development are moving to OS X rather than OS 9. Its very much like the fact that many people still run Win95 - but web developers are more likely to be running Win2k or WinXP. > >> You know, when I develop my software, I look for posts from people who >> are tell me what they don't like. Those people are the ones who usually >> express the opinions of the larger world out there - which I'm trying to >> court. I also look for posts about what they do like - so I know what to >> improve. > > That show that you are too concerned about your customers feedback > And that you are doing here if I'm right? > So they surely grandly open their ears :) Customer feedback is very important to me. It drive 75% of the product. The other 25% is my own usage. But if you don't give the customers what they want - why would they buy the product? Of course...look at MS. They tell the customers what they should want... > >> ala Mac OS 10.0 (except instead of being slower than >> its predecessor, it'll be faster). > > I've just saw a pre version of Mac OS X running on an oldfashion ibook (with > 256 mb RAM) and was impressed by the... slow of GUI display/manipulation, > but I'm sure that's now no longer an issue with the actual version ;) > I've ran 10.1.5 (latest public release) and it wasn't slow - just not fast. I'm now running 10.2 (final candidate from the ADC servers) and its quite a bit faster. No real perceptible difference on my TiBook 667 to my WinXP machien 2Ghz. They made some big changes there. But I've tried 10.0 and it was...hm...dog slow. > Thanks for your inputs > > Gauthier > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex Kac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:06 AM > Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Pushing the E:nvelope ;-) > > >> Definitely not uninterested. Far from it. But I don't believe in >> comparing WiTango 5 to Tango 2k. I'm interested in comparing WiTango 5 >> to the others out there. >> >> To me, what keeps bringing me back to Tango over the others is: >> >> 1) The visual action editing >> 2) Search Action - its just nice not to have to deal with all the ifs, >> etc... When constructing SQL queries as I do even in .NET >> 3) Multi-platform >> 4) Easier handling of presentation/error/data access logic >> >> I personally prefer actually using a language like C# or even Java >> instead of the "meta tag" language because I just a more comfortable >> with it now (being in C++ day in and out), but the Tango Meta tag >> language is very powerful in a lot of places. >> >> Even with the new rewrite of the server, I still think it's a weakness. >> See, its featureset stays kind of static. It still can't do web services >> (which I was actually trying to get done as a lib for Tango 2 years >> ago), etc... >> >> The editor also still needs work. Its great at some things (listed >> above) but it falls flat at others. Its text editing is obsolete. The >> Mac version is worse. >> >> OK, so I know that due to the carbonization effort Phil and company are >> doing, its amazing the Mac editor even exists :) But I kinda feel they >> would have been better off just writing the editor in Cocoa in java or >> ObjC from scratch. They would have gained so much from that. >> >> I'm just trying to be realistic about WiTango's (I truly dislike that >> name - it sounds like "Why Tango?") strengths and weaknesses. >> >> You know, when I develop my software, I look for posts from people who >> are tell me what they don't like. Those people are the ones who usually >> express the opinions of the larger world out there - which I'm trying to >> court. I also look for posts about what they do like - so I know what to >> improve. >> >> I know WiTango 5 will bring Tango back to where it needs to be to get to >> the next level - ala Mac OS 10.0 (except instead of being slower than >> its predecessor, it'll be faster). I've resigned myself to knowing that >> this version won't be what *I'm* looking for. So my sights are now set >> to see what With's goals are for the future - besides the Java support. >> >> -- >> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer >> >> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management. >> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ >> >> zoomzoom >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [Gauthier] >>> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:44 PM >>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk >>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Pushing the E:nvelope ;-) >>> >>> >>> I don't think Alex is uninterested about Witango, I think >>> that Witango didn't have any problem to be compared to other >>> application server platforms available. >>> >>> Even if the some higher-end features (that Alex have >>> mentionned before) are not internaly embeded to the product, >>> it's just a matter of developments and there is always ways >>> to go where you need with Witango. Just think about the time >>> it save you to develop with it for the majority of the >>> solutions, even the current product is very competitive, here >>> is some point : >>> >>> -Outstanding databases support >>> -The visual action editing is STILL a feature that many >>> others products lacks >>> -The variable store scope concept is >>> really powerfull and let you completely manage your variable >>> life cycle. >>> -The Metatag language is tightly integrated and >>> you can use it just anywhere in your files (it's also >>> extensible thanks to the customtags!) I didn't saw a such >>> thing anywhere. >>> -It's designed to be effective from the >>> complete newbie (easy RDBMS actions, builders, visual action) >>> as well from the diehard developper (tcf, customtags, >>> external object integration, handy XML manuipulation, XML >>> Sourcecode...) >>> -It's multiplatform and interoperable, that's really an >>> important point for an application server >>> >>> We are all impatient (since the conference) to discover the >>> accurate featureset of the new version, and I think that the >>> java deployment ability is really a great point! >>> >>> There is also a feature of the server that wasn't elaborated >>> on the list, this is the WISP here is the only infos I've >>> found about it (I'm investigating ;) >>> -http://xml-extra.net/webpage.xmlx?node=55 >>> -http://www.leavens.net/witangoconf/pages/P4240319.html >>> (really enigmatic look like a 007 stuff !!!) >>> >>> So that's the surely kind of things that can bring higher-end >>> features for the whole client/server application development activity! >>> >>> Please don't take me wrong that's just my developer standpoint :) >>> >>> I don't want this thread become a flamewar thread! >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Gauthier >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ben Johansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk" >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:17 AM >>> Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Pushing the E:nvelope ;-) >>> >>> >>>> I am all for Free forums for the public, >>>> >>>> But, are you really interested in Witango, or are you just killing >>>> time Jerking us around? >>>> >>>> If you want to discuss WO (what objects) or Confussion, I am sure >>>> there are list servers for that. >>>> >>>> As long as you keep thinking this is just a Service Pack 2 >>> to your 2 >>>> year old knowledge of the past Tango. You will probably never like >>>> what the good people at With Enterprises are doing. >>>> >>>> This is Witango and it is going forward, if it is not at >>> your speed, >>>> move on >>>> >>>> Ben Johansen >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Alex Kac >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:59 PM >>>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk >>>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Pushing the E:nvelope ;-) >>>> >>>> I am waiting patiently :) Seriously, I am very hopeful as >>> I'd love to >>>> rekindle my years of Tango knowledge and comfortablness >>> with Tango. I >>>> truly would rather not have to start from scratch somewhere else >>>> (which I did with >>>> .net). >>>> >>>> I'm also taking the opportunity to download WebObjects >>> through my ADC >>>> account since I now have a few days to spare. >>>> >>>> That'll be very interesting - esp. since WO comes with both >>> Mac OS X >>>> deployment and Windows deployment - easing the transition >>> on servers. >>>> So both WO and CF now have free crossgrades, while With (I >>> asked them >>>> directly) >>>> will charge the upgrade fee for that. This comment is just >>> a sidenote. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer >>>> >>>> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management >>>> http://www.pocketinformant.com/ >>>> >>>> zoomzoom >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: "Ian Daniel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:31:48 -0700 >>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk >>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Pushing the E:nvelope ;-) >>>>> >>>>> To Stephen and all others urgently needing Version 5 info. >>>>> >>>>> Here's what we can share, just now. >>>>> >>>>> Information, including pricing is being distributed to resellers, >>>>> and >>>> they >>>>> have been given a few days to prepare themselves, their >>> websites and >>>> update >>>>> their support systems with the new data. >>>>> >>>>> When I say a few days, I mean a few days. That's less >>> than a week. >>>>> >>>>> Next week, the public beta will be released, and there will be >>>>> several places to go to download it. You'll be pleased >>> to know that >>>>> the >>>> Editor is >>>>> being separated from the personal server, to reduce download >>>> requirements. >>>>> The personal server will be a separate item without a >>> cost attached, >>>> but >>>>> with tighter restrictions than were previously on the personal >>>>> server, >>>> to >>>>> ensure that it is just used for development purposes. >>>>> >>>>> With the release of the public beta, there will be a >>> detailed list >>>>> of enhancements. >>>>> >>>>> Witango and Java will become good friends .. and very >>>>> well-acquainted >>>> .. but >>>>> not in version 5. >>>>> >>>>> Questions relating to functionality and release date of a Witango >>>> editor >>>>> that incorporates Java capabilities must be deferred to WE. >>>>> However, >>>> I can >>>>> personally tell you what I know to be a fact: elements >>> of the Java >>>>> functionality were demonstrated at the conference in >>> April, and the >>>> next >>>>> release of the Editor will not take as long as Version 5 took, >>>>> because >>>> the >>>>> time has been taken to re-architect everything to prepare for the >>>> future. >>>>> >>>>> And all marketing hype aside, I will tell you something else that >>>> everyone >>>>> on this list could figure out for themselves: that if >>> you combine >>>>> the absolutely top-shelf IDE that is the Witango Editor >>> ... with the >>>> ability to >>>>> create Java in object-oriented fashion, the future is >>> indeed bright. >>>>> >>>>> And you can take that to the bank. >>>>> >>>>> Please ... no flames .. for this thread, it's all been said. >>>>> >>>>> For those who anxiously await the launch of Witango >>> Version 5 public >>>> beta .. >>>>> take a deep breath, have a good weekend, and watch your email >>>> carefully >>>>> early next week. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Ian >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Stephen Arnold >>>>> >>>>> <sarcasm> Gee, thanks Ben. Such a tease!</sarcasm> >>>>> >>>>> I would think after the barrage of sentiment that MOST of us are >>>> anxious >>>>> to know when and how much, a few of you insiders wouldn't brag so >>>> much. >>>>> >>>>> Really, some of us are reaching critical mass on making important >>>>> decisions on software and hardware. Christmas is coming >>> and we know >>>> with >>>>> this year's anticipated volume and loads we can't sustain >>> the status >>>> quo >>>>> again this year. We, like some others, will be forced to >>> seek other >>>>> solutions, despite our affinity for the product and what >>> it may or >>>>> may not offer during its next "life". >>>>> >>>>> Stephen >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>>> __ >>>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>>> __ >>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >>>> >>>> >>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>>> __ >>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________________________ >>> ________________ >>> ifrance.com, l'email gratuit le plus complet de l'Internet ! >>> vos emails depuis un navigateur, en POP3, sur Minitel, sur le >>> WAP... http://www.ifrance.com/_reloc/email.emailif >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________________________ >>> __________ >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >>> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > ifrance.com, l'email gratuit le plus complet de l'Internet ! > vos emails depuis un navigateur, en POP3, sur Minitel, sur le WAP... > http://www.ifrance.com/_reloc/email.emailif > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body
