I have wrote:
" And I hope, that nobody
talks any more about "Tango" if the public beta
starts."
This is for the new version, if it is coming
out.
And that you have already agree, as i have
read:
" when I have a product
branded as "Witango Application Server v5.0" in my hands I may start calling it
by it's brand name"
So, if you do it, you don't get any
mail from me :-)))
regards
Daniel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trevor Green" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:52
PM
Subject: RE: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ??
Vaporware?
Server" when you install it by any other name. Oh, and by the way it
also shows itself by that exact same name in the NT services list. I
think when I have a product branded as "Witango Application Server v5.0"
in my hands I may start calling it by it's brand name, but it is very
strange calling a product called "Tango Application Server 2000" that I
purchased from "Pervasive Software" by any other name. A little like
buying a VW from a Nissan dealership and asking people to refer to it as
a Nissan.
Regards
Trevor
-----Original Message-----
From: Garth Penglase [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 02 August 2002 12:27 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk
Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware?
Yes, it is a pity that this is the name: too close to the old one so
people
still call it that. Some products have changed to an entirely new name
with
new owners and been the better because of it. But hey, it's a name. I am
a
loss as to why it is so important to everyone that developers get it
word
perfect.
cheers
Gareth (oops.. Garth)
At 10:59 2/08/02 +0200, you wrote:
>And I hope, that nobody talks any more about "Tango" if the public beta
>starts. Pls. remember, the product what we talk about is named:
>
> Witango
>
>Note for all: the written form is not WiTango or something else, it is
>"Witango".
>
>As some of you know, I was the guy where have collect the money for the
>charity on the Witango Conference. Some of you have see that it have
cost
>money to say the words "Tan..", "Perv...", T2K etc...
>
>Everybody, who wrote the "old" name of the no longer existing product
from
>Perv..., get from me a email (off list for sure) if the name of Witango
is
>false written.
>That's is the same as if I call Ben=Ban or Alex=Axel or Scott= Scot.
>Nobody like that his name is false written, Witango doesn't like it
also.
>
>regards, see you next week on the list
>
>Daniel Richardy
>(not Dan, or Danny or Richard or something else ...)
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ben Johansen" <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk"
><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:58 AM
>Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware?
>
> >
> > Here's hoping they let you in to the beta ;-)
> >
> > In most beta I have been in you have to be accepted, who know which
way it
> > will go.
> >
> > In this beta there is going to be a login to the bugtrack so you
don't have
> > to
> > re-enter you information over and over and over...
> >
> > let's hope you are accepted, and your knowledge is assimilated into
the
> > collective :-)
> >
> >
> > Ben Johansen - <http://www.pcforge.com>http://www.pcforge.com
> > Authorized WiTango Reseller
> >
>
<http://www.pcforge.com/WitangoGoodies.htm>http://www.pcforge.com/Witang
oGoodies.htm
> > latest beta downloads @ <http://www.witango.ws>http://www.witango.ws
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Alex Kac
> > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 8:27 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk
> > Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware?
> >
> >
> > Knowing myself, I'll start testing the moment I can download it.
With
> > Tango, I'm at least proficient enough to do that. That's one of the
> > reasons I came back to see what's going on.
> >
> > So in any case, I'm happy with waiting until after Monday to make my
> > decision :) Once I do - trust me, you'll either never hear from me
again
> > - or a lot of me. I don't tend to lurk much....
> >
> > --
> > Alex Kac, CEO/Developer
> >
> > Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management.
> > <http://www.pocketinformant.com/>http://www.pocketinformant.com/
> >
> > zoomzoom
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Scott
Cadillac
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:55 PM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk
> > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware?
> > >
> > >
> > > You're message is clear, Alex.
> > >
> > > Frustration. This is something we can all identify with here
> > > on the List - including Ben.
> > >
> > > Ben is a stalwart supporter of Witango and you managed to
> > > strike a nerve that runs deep in many of us. So don't just
> > > get mad at him, get mad at me too.
> > >
> > > Of course, the issue of information is still at hand. Why the
> > > lack of it? Sadly, I can't answer that, but I can tell you it
> > > is not because Phil and Sophie don't care about us or the
> > > product, they do. It wasn't until the Conference that their
> > > true sincerity was shown to all of us that attended -
> > > sincerity that they want Tango to live on and have a future.
> > > Plus Phil is the kind of character that just won't open his
> > > month unless he can look you in the eye and speak to you
> > > straight with hard facts.
> > >
> > > In the meantime, lets move onto more constructive topics.
> > > With the release of the Public Beta, everyone will see the
> > > progress made, where things are going and - with a dash of
> > > realism - everyone will get some input. Where are you going
> > > to start testing?
> > >
> > > On a side note, given Phil's nature, I suspect that all the
> > > features currently on the design table will most likely come
> > > out in stages and won't all be in the first Beta release.
> > >
> > > There are some exciting days ahead, and I'm glad you're onboard
Alex.
> > >
> > > Cheers...
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Alex Kac" <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk"
> > > <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Sold myself on WiTango? Of course I did - many years back.
> > > I've been
> > > > on
> > > the
> > > > list during the April conference - learned a bit - but saw
> > > that it was
> > > > awhile away. So I unsubscribed. Then I subscribed again
> > > right before
> > > > Macworld. So yes, I'm coming in as an outsider :)
> > > >
> > > > As for .NET - I love .NET. I truly dislike its lack of
> > > cross-platformness. I
> > > > also want an editor that's native to Mac OS X. My servers now
run
> > > Windows.
> > > > They will move to OS X Server now that Jaguar is coming out. Jag
and
> > > XServe
> > > > make a viable server to me that doesn't lock me in like
Microsoft
> > > > does.
> > > >
> > > > Now the question is not if I've sold myself on WiTango - its the
> > > > internal fight over will it meet my needs now and in the future?
> > > >
> > > > Honestly, I did not mean to start a "roast" or flame war.
> > > However, as
> > > > I thought I had stated my viewpoint and questions from the
onset, I
> > > > was
> > > hoping
> > > > to get answers based on that - instead I kept getting
> > > pushed back to
> > > > how WiTango compared to Tango 4 - which frankly, I didn't
> > > care. And it
> > > > just seemed like a runaround - so yes, I got very frustrated
with
> > > > those
> > > answers.
> > > > I don't have much patience for getting an answer to a question I
> > > > didn't
> > > ask.
> > > >
> > > > YOUR answers have been far more on track to my questions - and I
> > > appreciate
> > > > that. In any case, I'm here asking questions because With
> > > just hasn't
> > > > answered them themselves on their site. Its all very hush
> > > hush - which
> > > > I find ridiculous. And yeah, that probably frustrates me too.
Look,
> > > > I'm a father of 3 BOYS all about 1 year apart. It becomes a
> > > lot easier
> > > > to get frustrated at this list - my boys don't know better :)
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Alex Kac, CEO/Developer
> > > >
> > > > Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management
> > > > <http://www.pocketinformant.com/>http://www.pocketinformant.com/
> > > >
> > > > zoomzoom
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > From: "Scott Cadillac"
>
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>scott.cadillac@plusinterna
tional.com>
> > > > > Reply-To:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:45:53 -0700
> > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk
> > > > > <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware?
> > > > >
> > > > > Alex, previously you stated your feelings about .NET, which
are
> > > actually
> > > > > quite similar to mine I think. I admire the .NET
> > > architecture but I
> > > find
> > > > > the environment less than compelling.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, if you're shopping for alternatives to J2EE and .NET -
then it
> > > sounds
> > > > > like you've already sold yourself on Witango, but just
> > > haven't gone
> > > > > the final kilometer (mile) and admitted it to yourself yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe you were off-list during this period, but about 6 -
> > > 8 months
> > > > > ago
> > > I
> > > > > was stating LOAD and CLEAR to the List and With Enterprise my
> > > displeasures
> > > > > in my investment of time and money, my seemingly
> > > crumbling future,
> > > > > Witango's future, technologies futures - the whole gambit. And
on
> > > > > more
> > > than
> > > > > one occasion.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've started more than one flame-war (haven't I List?) about
how,
> > > > > what, when, who Witango should be and do. I still start the
> > > > > occasional
> > > flamelett
> > > > > when it's chilly up here in Canada, eh :-).
> > > > >
> > > > > It took me a while to realize it, but I simply didn't
> > > want to start
> > > over
> > > > > from scratch. Witango felt too much like home. So I
> > > decided to fix
> > > > > up
> > > the
> > > > > house I have and I started by building my sites
> >
> > > > > <http://xml-extra.net>http://xml-extra.net
> > > and
> > > > > <http://witango.org>http://witango.org ).
> > > > >
> > > > > I did this to prop up my personal investment in time and
> > > do what I
> > > > > can
> > > do
> > > > > contribute to building a stronger community of developers,
which
> > > ultimately
> > > > > contributes to the strength of Witango (and my career). Then I
> > > > > traveled
> > > to
> > > > > the Conference and gave a session on XML with Witango. I was
> > > > > rewarded
> > > many
> > > > > times over by the appreciation of the people that attended and
by
> > > > > Phil
> > > and
> > > > > Sophie very seriously taking some of my suggestions truly
> > > to heart.
> > > > >
> > > > > Being a part of the Private Beta experience has been
enormously
> > > rewarding
> > > > > as well. Now very shortly the rest of the List (and you)
> > > is going to
> > > > > experience the same rewards by being given an opportunity to
> > > > > contribute
> > > by
> > > > > way of the Public Beta.
> > > > >
> > > > > What am I saying Alex?
> > > > >
> > > > > Obviously you want to see Witango succeed - because you think
it's
> > > possible
> > > > > and it feels a lot like home - right? So lets get on
> > > board together
> > > > > and help make Witango everything it can be.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rome wasn't built in a day - and there are no guarantees in
life,
> > > except
> > > > > that life is constantly in motion, constantly in flux.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can't speak for anybody else, but I made my decision to stay
on
> > > > > board based entirely on faith of the possibilities. If you are
> > > > > expecting more guarantees than that from anybody other
> > > than yourself
> > > > > - then I wish you luck, because luck will be all you've
> > > got left to
> > > > > carry your endeavors through.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have enormous respect for your experience and valuable
> > > knowledge -
> > > > > we
> > > can
> > > > > use you :-). But the List has gone through this roast
> > > more than one
> > > > > and
> > > I
> > > > > don't blame people if they are getting tired of it. We need
more
> > > positive
> > > > > action than negative right now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Flame me. Bring it on!
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Alex Kac" <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list witango-talk"
> > > <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:17 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> I think its possible personally. The Tango IDE was always the
> > > > >> selling
> > > > > point.
> > > > >> To get there would require a huge amount of development
> > > effort, but
> > > you
> > > > > know
> > > > >> - Pervasive was somewhat going there with THEIR Tango 5
> > > effort. And
> > > > >> I believe With got some of that work. So if they are
> > > basing some of
> > > their
> > > > > Java
> > > > >> work off that - then I can say that it may be very
compelling.
> > > > >> Tango's
> > > > > IDE
> > > > >> is still far and away better than Cold Fusion's
> > > DreamWeaver MX in
> > > > >> my
> > > > > opinion
> > > > >> (which I've used for some small work - and is good for quick
> > > > >> things).
> > > The
> > > > >> server - no matter how much work they've done on it -
> > > just won't be
> > > > >> as
> > > > > good
> > > > >> as the J2ee/.NET servers out there purely because its
limited.
> > > > >> It'll definitely be better than what T4 provided from
> > > the very fact
> > > > >> of who
> > > is
> > > > >> mainly working on it (an awesome engineer). So I have
> > > high hopes of
> > > the
> > > > >> technology in the short term.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> But do remember that WebObjects is considered one of the best
> > > application
> > > > >> development environments yet it has no code completion and
other
> > > editor
> > > > >> niceties. After using Visual Studio.NET - that has been
> > > almost #1
> > > > >> on
> > > my
> > > > > list
> > > > >> for any IDE I use - code completion/Intellisense type
feature. I
> > > > >> would
> > > > > love
> > > > >> to see that in WiTango and for me would help cement the
> > > decision on
> > > what
> > > > >> product I use.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management
> > > > >>
<http://www.pocketinformant.com/>http://www.pocketinformant.com/
> > > > >>
> > > > >> zoomzoom
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> From: Robert Sfeir
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > >>> Reply-To:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:57:31 -0400
> > > > >>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk
> > > <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > > >>> Hash: SHA1
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Round trip JSP Editing in the Tango editor... Man that
> > > will be the
> > > day!
> > > > >>> If WiTango can manage that, they would smoke MANY IDEs
> > > out there
> > > > >>> provided that they can also do internal debugging (true
> > > debugging
> > > that
> > > > >>> is like any other language with break points, step
> > > in/out etc...)
> > > from
> > > > >>> within the editor. Of course they would need a slew of
> > > features
> > > > >>> to compete including refactoring, code completion (for
> > > html, jsp
> > > > >>> and
> > > xml),
> > > > >>> and editing/compiling of java code and JSP from within
> > > the editor
> > > > >>> itself. At that point I would forget about the Tango
> > > app server
> > > > >>> and
> > > > > let
> > > > >>> the existing java app servers deal with it, and
> > > concentrate on the
> > > IDE
> > > > >>> only.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Of course I've been singing this song forever, but
> > > everyone thinks
> > > I'm
> > > > >>> nuts. I just don't see the value of having a specialized
app
> > > > >>> server
> > > to
> > > > >>> run your code. Even ColdFusion is going to java with
> > > their stuff
> > > with
> > > > >>> NEO. I feel bad for the folks at WithEnterprise because the
T5
> > > > >>> app server, from what is described on this list, is
> > > something that
> > > > > Everyware
> > > > >>> and Pervasive OWED the (Wi)Tango community a long time ago.
> > > > >>> Unfortunately they're stuck with the product, and they're
stuck
> > > > >>> with trying to make things work the way they should
> > > have been in
> > > > >>> the FIRST PLACE, THEN deal with the added burden of
> > > catching up to
> > > > >>> market
> > > > > demands,
> > > > >>> which covering for a period of 2.5 years is just HUGE.
> > > So their
> > > > >>> task
> > > > > is
> > > > >>> larger than anyone sees I think... Oh yeah and they
> > > loose any kind
> > > > >>> of connection they had with the previous name of the
> > > product, and
> > > they're
> > > > >>> having to do it all from outside the US, which can't be easy
> > > > >>> either considering 95% of their market is over here.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Just my 2c.
> > > > >>> R
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 11:08 AM, Alex Kac wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> I am a very passionate person about a few things - and
> > > sometimes
> > > > >>>> I
> > > > > don't
> > > > >>>> know why. Tango is one of them. It is unique. I also
> > > tend to be
> > > > >>>> very opinionated - that didn't always come out when I
> > > worked for
> > > > >>>> PVSW
> > > since
> > > > > I
> > > > >>>> tended to be quite corporate there :)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Those things I mentioned may not be what an average web
> > > > >>>> application
> > > > > user
> > > > >>>> uses (since I think the average one is ASP/PHP
> > > driven), but once
> > > > > you've
> > > > >>>> used
> > > > >>>> them in .NET or elsewhere such as CF - they really make
life
> > > > >>>> simple
> > > in
> > > > >>>> so
> > > > >>>> many areas. The issue is that some of the features are
> > > key to me
> > > > >>>> - specifically web services - as I build more
> > > automated features
> > > > >>>> into
> > > > > our
> > > > >>>> website as well as working with our reseller. Granted,
> > > I've been
> > > > >>>> the
> > > > > one
> > > > >>>> pushing our retailers to allow registration/serial number
> > > > >>>> generation through web services to provide the best user
> > > > >>>> experience, as well as tying
> > > > > into
> > > > >>>> their engines in our site through web services - but
> > > either way,
> > > > >>>> its something that I really do need.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> The other part is that I still consult to quite a few
Austin
> > > > >>>> based enterprises (you know, the ones that buy $100k worth
of
> > > > >>>> hardware for
> > > a
> > > > >>>> website alone or $1mil for one single
> > > software/consulting deal)
> > > > >>>> and they all HAD tango stuff running and have moved to
> > > .NET. Now
> > > > >>>> Tango is
> > > probably
> > > > >>>> never
> > > > >>>> going to be on their radar again - but who knows?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> The other issue is cost. .NET is about $1k in costs.
Windows
> > > > >>>> server license
> > > > >>>> - about $500. Visual Studio.NET (which is an awesome
IDE...) -
> > > > > anywhere
> > > > >>>> from
> > > > >>>> $99 to $699 in stores. Or of course if you already
> > > have a Windows
> > > > >>>> server...anywhere from free to $699 for the IDE. Using
> > > that IDE,
> > > > >>>> I
> > > can
> > > > >>>> built
> > > > >>>> almost the same kind of apps that I can in Tango in some
cases
> > > > >>>> far
> > > > > less
> > > > >>>> time
> > > > >>>> - and in some cases more. Both have their strengths and
> > > > >>>> weaknesses.
> > > > > But
> > > > >>>> .NET
> > > > >>>> runs very fast; has data caching; industrial strength
sessions
> > > > > states -
> > > > >>>> and
> > > > >>>> best of all - a true programming language that doesn't
> > > stop you
> > > > >>>> from anything.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Problem is - no cross platform support (yet) and it
> > > doesn't feel
> > > like
> > > > >>>> home.
> > > > >>>> There is just something about Tango's design that I
> > > still love.
> > > > >>>> But
> > > I
> > > > >>>> want
> > > > >>>> to see it grow up. I don't like to sit here and wonder
> > > if it will
> > > > >>>> do what I want it to do - and I also don't have time
> > > to do that.
> > > > >>>> I want to
> > > know
> > > > >>>> if I
> > > > >>>> should just stop even thinking about it - or :)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Now, the ability to export to J2ee is what intrigues me
because
> > > then -
> > > > >>>> if
> > > > >>>> its editable - I can write most of the app in Tango
> > > and export to
> > > j2ee
> > > > >>>> for
> > > > >>>> the more complex pieces. Granted, I couldn't then edit it
in
> > > > >>>> Tango again - and that's a big issue.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> But once the featureset is announced, I can then sit back
and
> > > > >>>> make a decision.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> --
> > > > >>>> Alex Kac, CEO/Developer
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Innovation in Personal and Business Information Management
> > > > >>>>
<http://www.pocketinformant.com/>http://www.pocketinformant.com/
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> zoomzoom
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> From: Garth Penglase
> <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > >>>>> Reply-To:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >>>>> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:03:38 +1000
> > > > >>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list witango-talk
> > > > > <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witangov5 ?? Vaporware?
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Well, it would be sad to see you go Alex, since you would
be a
> > > valued
> > > > >>>>> developer on this list, particularly with your programming
> > > > >>>>> efforts
> > > in
> > > > >>>>> the
> > > > >>>>> PIM area, so I hope that you find enough in the new
> > > version to
> > > > >>>>> keep
> > > > > you
> > > > >>>>> interested. I would have thought that some of the items
> > > > >>>>> mentioned
> > > in
> > > > >>>>> your
> > > > >>>>> wish-list were a bit beyond what the "average" developer
(if
> > > > >>>>> there
> > > is
> > > > >>>>> such
> > > > >>>>> a thing) would be expecting, I would have thought, but
they
> > > certainly
> > > > >>>>> would
> > > > >>>>> take the product a long way further than the previous
> > > > >>>>> incarnation
> > > and
> > > > >>>>> would
> > > > >>>>> be exciting additions. I do think that even if the product
> > > > >>>>> doesn't live up to these expectations initially, the
> > > extension
> > > > >>>>> of its legendary ease-of-use
> > > > >>>>> and new speed and stability, along with the
> > > advancements already
> > > > >>>>> mentioned
> > > > >>>>> (j2ee etc..) must make it worth consideration for the
> > > majority of
> > > us.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I must say I think that if you went it would be a
> > > duller list as
> > > > >>>>> well - the number of emails in this thread has got to be a
> > > > >>>>> record, and you certainly
> > > > >>>>> have made life a little more interesting on the list!
> > > > >>>>> cheers
> > > > >>>>> Garth
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >
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