Hi Richard, your answers are all very enlightened to me, especially that I intend to provide bilingual web site services. > - use utf-8 as the page encoding if you can (you do Lachlan, I know) However I have a bit of doubt on this though. Don't get me wrong, I am a unicode supporter and have my Chinese page set to utf-8, despite the fact that I know very well Mac' IE 5.2 (which still have significant users) has poor support of unicode Chinese - some character are missing, some got cut of. I thought I could afford to lose this audience and I am sort of still believing it.
Ever since my web site launched, 3 people email me that my Chinese site, the characters looks funny on their browsers. What a luck I have, three of them are using OS 9 with their beloved IEs. One who emailed me yesterday, actually was looking for a web designer who can make Chinese website and know the language well to help her with the content (which I am), and is a recommendation from a new client I recently got. The first sentence in her email is: How can I be sure that you did know to make Chinese website if you site is not showing up properly on my browser? I of course have a answer for her that I can have the site set to gb or big5, but to unknown audiences, you can't suggest them to switch to NN or FF, not to mention that OS 9 user has limited choice when it comes to browser. I personally know 5 people that uses Mac, their OS are 8.6 to 9.2, two of them actually have the first flat panel iMac that shipped with OS X but 9.2 by default. They did not know they can turn the OS X on. All these people are IE 5.2 users. I believe there are many more like them out there. That was the reason I make a suggestion to Lachlan that if his client cares the Chinese audience, perhaps a gb/big 5 page is more important than 'using the utf-8 whenever you can'. tee > Subject: RE: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web > site > > I've been meaning for some time to write an article about this for the W3C > i18n site but not yet found the time. I'll have to try harder. > > To help, here are some brief suggestions, based on the assumptions that you > are linking to translations (rather than different country sites), and have > enough space on the user interface to list all alternatives. > > (Disclaimer: These are quickly written stream-of-consciousness notes that > haven't been reviewed.) > > > - use the name of the target language in the native language and script as > the link, eg. 'French' would be written 'franÃais' (note, beware of different > capitalisation conventions) > > - use a graphic if you are concerned about users not having the appropriate > font/rendering capability for the language you are showing (note that these > will never be translated, so the usual translatability issue about text in > graphics is mute) (note also that the person who speaks the language linked to > will usually have the necessary fonts etc., so this is more of a cosmetic > issue)(Of course, it is slightly more time consuming to change graphics if > your styling is changed.) > > - if you are not using utf-8 or another Unicode encoding you may need to use a > graphic or numeric character references > > - put the links near the top of the page (and ideally to the right side, if > the design allows). At least make them above the fold. > > - don't forget to post visible links to all language versions on all pages > that have translations > > - since you are using text in another language, identify the language using > lang/xml:lang attributes > > - add title and alt text *in the language of the current page* that explains > that this is a link to a translated version of the page. It is likely that the > language name alone is sufficient here (see the example below) - this > certainly helps when adding new translations to the list, since you can look > up the appropriate text rather than having to ask all the translators for > additional translations of language names). > > - note that lang/xml:lang values reflect the language of attribute text as > well as element content. For this reason you may need to nest elements as in > the example below. > > - consider specifying styling for the foreign text - especially if this is > Chinese, Japanese or Korean, where fonts may be automatically applied by the > user agent (see > http://www.w3.org/International/tests/results/lang-and-cjk-font ). For info on > how to apply the style see > http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-lang . > > > > EXAMPLE > > Here is an example of an English document that points to romanian and swedish > translations using text: > > <p class="noprint">> > <span title="Romanian"><a > href="/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.ro.html" xml:lang="ro" > lang="ro">RomÃnaË</a></span> > <span title="Swedish"><a > href="/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.sv.html" xml:lang="sv" > lang="sv">svenska</a></span></p> > > [Those of you who are clever enough to find these pages should be aware that > we are still in the process of implementing these translations and updating > the page style at the same time, so you won't see what you expect in this case > ;-) > > Note that the span is added to support the title information, since that is in > English. (The <html> tag declares the context to be English.) > > > Here is an example using graphics: > > <p class="noprint">> > <a href="/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.ro.html"><img > src="romanian.gif" alt="Romanian" title="Romanian"/></a> > <a href="/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.sv.html"><img > src="swedish.gif" alt="Swedish" title="Swedish"/></a></p> > > > > SHOULD I USE HREFLANG? > > You could, but it doesn't really seem to have any effect here (unlike in the > <link> element). There are also some potential issues you should consider. > See > http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-lang.html#ri20050128.152033 > 553 > > Also, it should be redundant because you should ensure that you declare the > language of the target page in its <html> tag anyway ! > > > > OTHER IDEAS (SOME FROM WSG FOLK) > > - if using graphics, you could use a roll-over mechanism to reveal the name of > the language of the target page in the language of the current page (rather > than just the title and alt attributes). > > - I'm not convinced an automated gif is a good idea - especially if you have > several going at the same time (too much like blink text). > > - It is also possible to include the name of the language of the target page > in parentheses in the language of the current page - an example makes this > clear, on an English page you might have: franÃais (French). This uses up a > lot of space, however, and it could be argued that it is unnecessary. > > > FURTHER READING > > See also upcoming articles on: > - How to use the link element > - How to deal with pull-downs, where there isn't room to list all alternatives > directly in the page. > > > Hope that helps. > RI > > > ============ > Richard Ishida > W3C > > contact info: > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ > > W3C Internationalization: > http://www.w3.org/International/ > > Publication blog: > http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hardy >> Sent: 11 April 2005 15:02 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an >> English web site >> >> G'day folks! >> >> A query for those with some experience in using multiple >> languages in their sites: >> >> In a site that is predominantly English, select pages have >> been translated into both Simplified and Traditional Chinese. >> Each page contains a link where users are able to indicate >> their preferred language (hence receiving translated pages as >> appropriate). My issue is how to show this this link appropriately >> >> Originally I had something similar to this: >> >> <a href="#" lang="zh-Hans" >> title="éæåïåæéééåçèæéèïäåæ >> åèééæäçääææç">çääæ</a> (don't know this will >> come out in >> email, but the contents of the anchor and its title attribute >> are Simplified Chinese) >> >> However, this fails as on many computers it will appear as >> those horrible little blocks that indicate lack of the >> appropriate font >> >> Next attempt was something like: >> >> <a href="#"><img >> src="#" >> alt="Most pages will display in English, only translated >> pages display in Simplified Chinese. éæ >> åïåæéééåçèæéèïäåæåèééæäçääææç" >> title="When >> selected, most >> pages will be in readable in English with only translated >> pages displaying in Simplified Chinese. éæ >> åïåæéééåçèæéèïäåæåèééæäçääææç"></a> >> >> Except of course, that doesn't give any indication of >> language involved. >> >> Suggestions, experiences, vague clues? >> >> Cheers, >> Lachlan >> >> >> ****************************************************** >> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ >> >> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help >> ****************************************************** >> > > ****************************************************** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ****************************************************** > ****************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ******************************************************
