Absolutely it is. I'm rather surprised at how badly they handle DLs, but almost zero percent of web developers use them even now (remember that standards-compliant designers represent perhaps 1% of the industry). Go back just a few years and no one at all was using them. Is it not also the responsibility of designers to design for the user agents that actually exist rather than utopian user agents that do not exist? After all, the WCAG make several references to "Until user agents..." which explicitly acknowledges that user agents don't yet have all the functionality that users need. In fact they never will because expectations will change over time. In another document that I can't currently find, the W3C state that it is necessary for designers, user agent vendors and the standards themselves to all move together. There's no use one of these going off in their own direction at their own pace. It's never going to be possible for all of them to be exactly in sync but that's what we need to aim for while making progress in an agreed direction. I don't think that using headings in this example is cheating at all. It's perfectly valid as other people have suggested. Remember that the purpose of semantics is to convey information effectively. There is no point in using them if they do not achieve that goal. If you care about the users you will provide semantics that 'are' useful to them, not semantics that 'should' be useful. Could you stand in front of your customer a justify your viewpoint to them? I don't suppose they would be terribly impressed because they want the best user experience for their customers. How can you intentionally deny them that? Steve
_____ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: 09 January 2008 05:21 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] semantic list with explanations Hi Steve, Isn't the responsibility of screen reader manufacturers to treat DLs for what they are? Following this logic, we should be using basic table markup for layout to give people using old visual browsers a better experience. If we cheat with the markup to please user agents what's the incentive for SR manufacturers to take care of the problem? -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Green Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 8:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] semantic list with explanations I think that definition lists would be appropriate semantically but in the real world I don't know of any user agent that does anything useful with a definition list or any user group that derives any benefit from them. Certainly they make no sense when read with a screen reader because you cannot differentiate one list item from the next. I would therefore use heading and paragraphs. As ever, your decision depends on your motivation. If you care only about semantic purity and don't care about the user experience, go ahead and use a definition list. If you do care about the user experience, use headings. Steve _____ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim MacKay Sent: 09 January 2008 03:49 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] semantic list with explanations Hello all, Just looking for a little help. I'm creating a sort of 'point form' list that goes a bit like this: 1. Pursuit of customer satisfaction "We promise to pursue customer satisfaction as our main point of customer focus.blah blah blah.." 2. Pursuit of customer loyalty "We promise to pursue customer loyalty as our secondary point of customer focus.blah blah blah.." What is the best way to semantically mark this up? My first guess would be an ordered list but the definitions underneath don't really allow for it. A definition list doesn't seem very appropriate either because of the wordiness of the explanations; to me a true definition list would only be a few words. Any thoughts? Thanks, Tim ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *******************************************************************
