Sebastian, I fully agree that replacement is often crucial; especially when quotes are added by the processor, like in your example, it is important to then substitute quotes of the same kind — but how far should the processor go?
Your example is the easy case: you are adding “ and ” and you replace all occurrences of the same quotation marks by the inner-quote variants. I agree that it makes sense for CSL to demand such behavior. But would you replace " also (as in: "Ain't I a woman?")? More importantly, how do you distinguish between opening and closing "? Or what do you do if your current locale defines quotes as » and « — do you still replace all occurrences of " quotes? More interestingly, do you replace “ and ” too? The next question is: do you replace ' with single quotes? Again, do you do that always, or only if your locale's single quotes are ‘ and ’? Sylvester On Sun, 2014-01-26 at 11:35 -0700, Sebastian Karcher wrote: > The problems with quotes and en-dashes are slightly different. > > > For en-dashes, the chance that auto-replace is doing something > undesirable is _quite_ small. I'm sure hyphens in page numbers exist > somewhere, but I have never seen one. On the other hand, technically > we wouldn't need to do this, since users _could_ input en-dashes > themselves in the data. However, so few people are even aware of > en-dashes, and even fewer know how to type one on their computer that > I think that would be a bad, bad idea (I believe bibtex requires the > en-dash, usually as --, in the data. ) > > > For quotations marks, there is a higher chance of problems - and they > do come up occasionally - but it is also absolutely crucial to getting > correct citations from the same data. Take an article title like: > “Ain’t i a woman?”: Towards an intersectional approach to person > perception and group-based harms > > The above is how it's printed in the journal and I imagine most people > would input it like that. Now if you cite this in APA, you want: > Goff, P. A., Thomas, M. A., & Jackson, M. C. (2008). “Ain’t i a > woman?”: Towards an intersectional approach to person perception and > group-based harms. Sex Roles, 59(5-6), 392–403. > doi:10.1007/s11199-008-9505-4 > > > I.e. double quotes as in the original. But in Chicago style, you want > > > Goff, Phillip Atiba, Margaret A. Thomas, and Matthew Christian > Jackson. “‘Ain’t I a Woman?’: Towards an Intersectional Approach to > Person Perception and Group-Based Harms.” Sex Roles 59, no. 5–6 > (September 1, 2008): 392–403. doi:10.1007/s11199-008-9505-4. > > > i.e. converted single quotes. There is absolutely no alternative to > having the processor do this, so yes, I do think it's necessary and > should be uncontroversial. > > > So while, as a general issue, I agree it's tricky to auto-anything > with user content, I do think we're doing the right thing here in both > cases. > > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Sylvester Keil <sylves...@keil.or.at> > wrote: > Thanks for this Chris! > > In my opinion this demonstrates that we must tread very > carefully when > touching user input. A similar issue arises with single and > double > quotes — IIRC citeproc-js applies conversions there as well > (not quotes > added by the processor, but quotes present in the original > input). I > have yet to look at this in more detail, but I imagine this is > potentially even more controversial than hyphens in page > numbers. Is > there an equally strong consensus for converting quotes as > there is for > the page range delimiter? > > > On Sun, 2014-01-26 at 04:14 +0000, Maloney, Christopher > (NIH/NLM/NCBI) > [C] wrote: > > I just came across an interesting note on the description > page of Wikipedia's citation bot > > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Citation_bot#Page_numbers_with_hyphens), > and thought it might be relevant here: > > > > The bot replaces hyphens with en dash in page number > ranges. On rare occasions when a hyphen is > > right and an en dash is wrong (hyphen in the page number > itself), manually use the hyphen HTML > > code ‑ instead of the dash/hyphen. > > > > So, according to this, there are edge cases where the > substitution would be wrong. I don't have any examples, but > if you want to pursue it, you could leave a note on the bot > talk page > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Citation_bot), or > contact the author > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Smith609). > > > > > > Chris Maloney > > NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor) > > Building 45, 5AN.24D-22 > > 301-594-2842 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rintze Zelle [mailto:rintze.ze...@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:47 PM > > > To: development discussion for xbiblio > > > Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Page range delimite > replacement > > > > > > Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) > ever encounter > > > item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or > en-dashes in page > > > ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated hyphens > and em-dashes > > > as well? > > > > > > Rintze > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil > <sylves...@keil.or.at> > > > wrote: > > > > Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add > one more > > > > sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for > implementors we > > > > could also enumerate exactly which characters should be > replaced (my > > > > take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch > things like > > > > '--', too). > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > CenturyLink Cloud: The Leader in Enterprise Cloud > Services. > > > Learn Why More Businesses Are Choosing CenturyLink Cloud > For Critical > > > Workloads, Development Environments & Everything In > Between. > > > Get a Quote or Start a Free Trial Today. > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=119420431&iu=/4140/ostg.c > > > lktrk > > > _______________________________________________ > > > xbiblio-devel mailing list > > > xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > CenturyLink Cloud: The Leader in Enterprise Cloud Services. > > Learn Why More Businesses Are Choosing CenturyLink Cloud For > > Critical Workloads, Development Environments & Everything In > Between. > > Get a Quote or Start a Free Trial Today. > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=119420431&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > _______________________________________________ > > xbiblio-devel mailing list > > xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CenturyLink Cloud: The Leader in Enterprise Cloud Services. > Learn Why More Businesses Are Choosing CenturyLink Cloud For > Critical Workloads, Development Environments & Everything In > Between. > Get a Quote or Start a Free Trial Today. > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=119420431&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > xbiblio-devel mailing list > xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel > > > > > -- > Sebastian Karcher > Ph.D. Candidate > Department of Political Science > Northwestern University > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CenturyLink Cloud: The Leader in Enterprise Cloud Services. > Learn Why More Businesses Are Choosing CenturyLink Cloud For > Critical Workloads, Development Environments & Everything In Between. > Get a Quote or Start a Free Trial Today. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=119420431&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > xbiblio-devel mailing list > xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
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