Cde, Before indulding on answering what Shibdas said....can you comment on the Bible Code first...and before I can make any further comment s on the subject..can anyone answer me...with regard to the Bible Code...cause we are trying to find scientific answers on the subject of Christianity...THERE IS THE BIBLE CODE...BROKEN WITH AN ARITHMATIC SEQUENCE FORMULA...A SCIENTIFIC FORMULA...NOT SPECULATED ON BUT REAL...CAN WE COMMENT ON THAT? i SAID CHRISTIANITY WAS SCIENTIFIC...MADE MENTION OF THE BIBLE CODE...THE EQUIDISTANT LETTER SEQUENCES (ELS) IN BREAKING A MATRIX...THAT IS THE ORIGINAL TEXT OF THE BIBLE...BY USE OF A MATHEMATICAL SCIENTIFIC FORMULA..CAN WE COMMENT ON THAT FIRST?
xoli On 2/18/10, howard matjomane <[email protected]> wrote: > Cde Xoli, > May you please comment on the below extract from > > *Shibdas Ghosh.* > > > > *Primitive thinking was materialistic* > > In many earlier discussions I said that primitive man's thinking was > materialistic, he could not conceive of any non-material or supra-matter > entity. At the dawn of man's thinking when he had just been able to think, > whatever he thought it pertained to matter. Primitive man had no concept at > all of supra-matter entity, nor was it possible. So man's primitive thinking > had no room for anything other than matter. This is why it is said that > primitive man's thinking whatsoever was materialistic. Let us now examine > how the concept of god originated in society. Comrades who listened to > discussions on Marxism and dialectical materialism in earlier classes are > acquainted with all these. But I should discuss these anew, keeping in mind > the newcomers. > > Students of history know that primitive man was the originator of magic, * > mantras,**[1]*<http://www.marxistsfr.org/archive/shibdas-ghosh/1964/06/26.htm#n1#n1>etc. > He took to these with the objective of gaining control over matter, > taming the forces of nature and the harmful powers of matter. We have it > from history that magic constituted man's first effort to know matter. That > is why primitive man's magic has been termed the primitive science. If > science originated from the effort to know matter, that effort began with > the primitive man. This 'science' of those days did not practically help > primitive man to know, understand or tame the forces of matter. > Nevertheless, this is how primitive man sought to control matter. How much > did man know of matter then is a different question. But should you want to > understand what he sought to achieve through magic you will have to consider > the type of problems he faced. *Suppose, a big stone fell down and hurt some > men, or a fire broke out and burnt* things. Man could not make out the > causes of all these. In those days, man had no idea of why a big chunk of > rock fell down or a fire broke out. Man came to know later that the fall of > a stone is due to a physical force, not a supernatural force. > > But to man of the primitive age, these were harmful, evil forces. So he > would try to propitiate or control these forces by appeasing them. He used > to think that unless he could appease and propitiate these forces, these > might do them harm. So, primitive man used to dance and gesticulate before a > chunk of stone or a fire in the hope that this would appease the evil > forces. But the point *to note is that man did not think of existence of a > supernatural entity. The forces which the primitive* man tied to please by > chanting *mantras* and doing all these things had their origin in matter. He > had no other means at his disposal nor did he have the thinking capacity to > invent anything besides these. Whether he could grasp the nature of matter > or not, the endeavour to know the material world was there. The urge to know > matter was there despite the means adopted by him. At a later stage, these * > mantras* and magic were reduced to means of *worshipping gods and > goddesses*. > The strange fact is that the magic used in the primitive ages as the means > to know matter, whether it served that purpose or not, acquired a totally > different character in later times and became an integral part of offerings, > worship and such other religious ceremonies. Even after so much development > of science, even after the discovery and harnessing of atomic energy, * > mantras* continue to exist as part of religious practices. > > So you see, primitive man's thinking was materialistic. He did not conceive > of any supra-matter entity, although he had no correct idea about the nature > and character of matter. What we know and understand of matter today was not > known to man of those days, nor was it possible. He struggled to know > matter, he had to struggle against nature in order to advance. It was not > possible for him to conceive of god as the creator, or of any other entity > independent of matter. Thinking about god had no room in his mind. The idea > of god or a supernatural entity came much later, only after conditions > conducive to the emergence of such thinking had appeared in society, and not > before that. So, an environment conducive to the emergence of the idea of a > supra-matter supernatural entity in the human mind, on the one hand, and > development of the capacity for thinking and imagination on the other -- a > combination of these two -- led to the idea of god. > How idea of god appeared > > When did the idea of god appear ? It appeared at a time when society had > become class divided, stable property had appeared, and a kind of > administrative system under a ruling circle had been established. This stage > of social development with a ruler heading the administration and laying > down laws as he willed, which had to be obeyed by all, and the society being > run in a more or less organized, disciplined manner, seized man with an > idea. He observed that the world around him was governed by some laws. > Sunrise and sunset, and day and night followed one after another; seasons > changed -- winter, then summer, then the rainy season -- each coming > periodically; ebbs and tides, the new moon and full moon alternating -- > everything followed in a regular order, obeying certain laws. So the thought > struck man that if society could not be run in an orderly way without a > law-giver ruler who was the master, how could the vast universe run so > orderly unless it had a lord or a master ? That is, having observed the role > of the ruler in maintaining discipline in society, when man sought to > investigate why nature and the universe was law-governed, the similarity of > order and discipline between the two struck him and on that ground he got > the idea of a supermaster -- the god. This is the basic cause why, and this > is how, the idea of god appeared in society. > > Another point. Such questions did not strike man at the very beginning just > because he had observed the disciplined orderly changes in nature. Man could > not think of correlating social discipline with the disciplined order of > nature or the master of society with the idea of an almighty god so long as > 'jungle-law' prevailed in society and there was no law and order. When man > was still in the stage of animals virtually, and used to roam about in > forests divided in hordes and the question of a society with law and order > had not arisen at all, the idea of god had not appeared in the human brain, > although man had been observing the orderly changes in nature. Precisely at > what stage of society did the idea of god appear and what was the specific > social system obtaining then are subjects of detailed social-anthropological > research. Many researchers, including Morgan, have investigated this. From > these researches and the cave paintings of primitive man and such other > available data and materials, it appears that the idea of god first struck > man in the slave society which was divided into slaves and slave masters. > > However, you have noted that even when man practised magic as a means of > knowing and controlling matter or the forces of matter, idealism or the > concept of god had not appeared in society. I have told you very briefly > about why and in which circumstances the idea of an almighty god appeared in > the human mind. Later on, the celestial bodies -- the stars, planets, > satellites, all made of matter -- were sought to be projected as forces > transcending matter, and this way a supernatural power was ascribed to the > sun, moon, jupiter, venus, saturn, etc. Such supernatural forces have not > been explained in the same way in different religions. The interpretations > given in the *Koran*, the *Bible* and the Hindu scriptures differ. But in > one respect they are essentially the same, inasmuch as in all the religions > a supra-matter, supernatural, omnipotent entity has been conceived as the > fundamental basis of everything -- anything happening in the universe is as > per his will. All religions hold that god's will is a free will independent > of the laws of matter and that the material world with its laws is but the > expression of his will. Once god had been described as > *nirakar*,*[2]*<http://www.marxistsfr.org/archive/shibdas-ghosh/1964/06/26.htm#n2#n2>that > is without any formal structure. Attributes of god have been described > in great detail in the religions, but nobody could get to know who is god > and where his abode is. *There is no way of knowing these because god does > not exist anywhere except in the human brain -- in man's imagination, that > is on the mirror of his mind.* You have already heard how the idea of god > appeared in the human mind. At one stage of the Hindu religion, plurality of > deities was conceived. The interpretations of different religions have taken > different forms in varying circumstances, although the essence of all > religions is basically the same as you have just heard. > > So you see, although primitive man's thinking was materialistic, idealistic > thinking appeared in society at a particular stage of its development. Since > then, idealistic and materialistic thinkings have been there existing > alongside of and in struggle with each other. So, the thoughts of human > society can broadly be classified into two categories -- the idealistic and > the materialistic. The idealistic thinking again is subdivided into many > schools of thought which are in mutual contradictions, on the one hand, but > have a basic unity too, on the other. It should also be understood that the > idealistic thinking is not necessarily theism. There are many idealists who > do not believe in god -- they are atheists. They want to rely upon science. > But even so, their thinking has not always been based on science. Though not > believing in god, they have in fact fallen victim to idealistic thinking and > practice of idealism. Though there are differences in the expressions of the > idealistic thinking, barring the atheists all idealists have accepted the > existence of supra-matter entity on some question or other. They have all > subscribed to the belief subjectively, that is, they have anyhow assumed the > existence of a supra-matter entity outside the material world and the laws > governing it. What they all have agreed on is that it is not that only the > material world is real, supra-matter entity too exists. Where they differ is > where and how this supra-matter entity exists. This is nothing but a variant > of the idealist process of thinking. On the other hand, the main contention > of the other school of thought, the materialist thinking, is that matter is > the basis of all thought. Protagonists of this school of thinking hold that > only the material world is real, no supernatural supra-matter entity exists > in the universe. This particular process of thinking is called the > materialist thinking. Many a philosophy have developed on the basis of this > materialist thinking, because although all are materialists, their concepts > and interpretations of matter do differ. > Idealism and materialism > > But I will not go into the differences among the various idealist > philosophies as also among the various materialist philosophies. > Incidentally, I like to point out that with the development of epistemology > and science, and with experience in course of advancement of human society, > both the idealist and the materialist schools of thought have continually > changed and thus have developed to their present stages. Even after the idea > of god appeared in history, that too has not remained static -- it had had > to grapple with many a question and problem. For instance, it has been > considered in some religions that man is born good. But experience shows > that there are not only good men but bad ones too in society. So, it has got > to be admitted that the same god created bad or evil men along with honest > and good ones. Or else, if it is assumed that god is the creator of only > good men then the idea of existence of satan as the creator of evil men from > the very inception of creation is inescapable. Considered thus, it boils > down to this that satan too, along with god, should be viewed as the creator > of the universe. Man has had to face such intricate questions. Confronted > with such issues some discarded the divine theory itself and became > agnostics who hold that the question whether god exists or not, is beyond > the purview of human knowledge, and so this could not be a concern of man. > > I may recount an experience of mine in passing. I have had occasions to meet > persons who are atheists but bourgeois humanists, not Marxists or > dialectical materialists. Their thinking is that the *belief in god is the > root cause of all evils and exploitation*. They hold that class struggle, > Marxism, etc., have no basis and are of no use ! Their contention is that > unless god can be banished from the mind, there can be no emancipation of > man. They say that unless man stands on his own legs, he cannot protest > against injustice and fight against the god cult, and the reason why man > endures oppression and tyranny and takes the onslaughts lying down is his > fatalism, or belief in god. So their contention is that if only the belief > in god could be dispelled, man would stand up with his head high. Such is > the frame of their logic. You have to bear in mind that Marxists have > nothing in common with these atheists. Marxists too are atheists but atheism > ipso facto is not Marxism. There are many atheists who are rabid > anti-Marxists. But we had better keep in mind that there are instances in > history when Marxists moved together with the believers in struggles against > injustice and exploitation, but have seldom been able to work unitedly with > these atheists. > > Let us now come back to the earlier discussion. When the idea of god > appeared in the class divided society after the appearance of stable > property and the idea of the almighty god struck firm roots in human mind, > in this situation people came to consider the king and the lord the > representatives of god. They thought that just as god ruled the universe, > the king, as the representative of god, ruled the country and society, and > ruled everybody. So, people came to believe that if one was loyal to god one > had to be loyal to the king, that is, they used to think that if one did not > want to oppose god, one should not go against the king either. Conversely, > the belief was that one who betrayed the king might as well betray god. Such > was what religion generally came to mean in that period. The > religious-minded did not revolt against monarchy. Their belief in god helped > to protect monarchy. > > But I beg to differ with those who hold that idealist philosophy has all > along been an instrument of exploitation in the hands of the exploiting > class in all stages of history. I consider this concept unobjective and a > distortion of history. However, I consider them equally wrong who claim that > materialist thinking had all along been a weapon in the hands of the > exploited classes. > Role of idealism and materialism in history > > Consider the instance of the slave society, divided into slaves and slave > masters. You have heard grim accounts of inhuman torture on the slaves by > their masters. Many a woeful tale have been written on this which still now > move the mind deeply. Those episodes are heart rending indeed. The believers > in Christianity were confronted with a question on the oppression of slaves > by slave masters. Following the teachings of Jesus Christ and the precepts > of Christianity, they sincerely believed that all men were created equal by > god. They believed that no discrimination should be made between the > creatures created by god. Guided by this precept rooted deeply in their mind > the slaves had organized themselves and protested against the slave masters. > They thought that since Christianity preached equality of all, the slave > masters, by perpetrating oppression on the slaves, were acting against the > will of god, and so to torture the slaves was to defile Christianity. Viewed > from this angle, it is not difficult to realize that Christianity helped the > slaves in a way to organize struggles against the injustice and oppression > by the slave masters and in that sense helped in social progress at that > time. Similar was the case with the adherents of Islam as well. > > The point should be examined from another angle also. You should bear in > mind that it was the religion at a particular stage of social development > that helped in *furthering the concept of morals and ethics, the sense of > values, the concept of right and wrong, the spirit of service* to others and > not despising anyone. As a result, a sense of discipline grew which helped > to bring about consolidation and cohesion in society. From this angle too, > religion played a role in social progress. So my point is that to the extent > religion helped in social progress and at which stage of history determine > its historical value. *To deny this is to deny history itself. Whether *the > religious interpretations are correct or not is a different matter. The > point is, it is true that idealistic thinking has historically been used as > a tool of exploitation by the exploiting class most of the time, but I am > unable to agree on the contention that religious thought or idealistic > thinking never played a positive role in social progress. > > Again, if one thinks that materialist thinking has all along been an > instrument of struggle in the hands of the exploited classes, I feel that is > not fully correct. You all know that the very same kings and lords who > projected themselves as representatives of god at one stage afterwards > became oblivious of the 'heavenly abode' and indulged in pleasures and > luxury, considering enjoyment of life, in the crude sense, the be-all and > the end-all. Actually, by this they practised vulgar materialism, and no > religious precept or religious sense of right and wrong worked in them. By > disregarding the question of virtue and vice, they could think only of how > to enjoy life, inducing others in this way to be selfish and obstructing > social progress in reality. Again, the philosophy of > Charvak*[3]*<http://www.marxistsfr.org/archive/shibdas-ghosh/1964/06/26.htm#n3#n3>, > you know, is a materialist philosophy. I am not discussing it in detail > here. The point is, Charvak did not believe in a 'world beyond death'. At > the same time he opposed the religious and ascetic practices; and there is a > saying attributed to him, which is in wide circulation, exhorts : > > *Yavat jivet sukhang jivet* > > *Rinang kritva ghritang pivet* > *[4]*<http://www.marxistsfr.org/archive/shibdas-ghosh/1964/06/26.htm#n4#n4> > > That is to say, since Charvak was a non-believer in a 'world beyond death' > he was making a plea for living in pleasure as long as one lived. In > whatever sense Charvak might or might not have said it, many have > interpreted his doctrine to mean that pleasure is the chief good in life, > and so one is free to enjoy oneself without bothering about the wellbeing of > others. Clearly, this kind of materialistic thinking makes a virtue of > self-interest to the exclusion of interest of society, helping thereby to > breed opportunistic thinking and hinder social progress in effect. > > > Howard > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Sithembewena tsembeyi <[email protected] >> wrote: > >> **Comrade Xoli let us firstly not confuse myth with science, I think it >> was clearified to you by a fellow cader in this same blog that science and >> being scientific are two separate things, well on the matter of the codes >> you are reffering to, I think we all know of the many existing codes even >> the davincy code that is clear known to be a myth. and for my qoutes you >> have as ussual missed the point and turned to be more of a christian >> DOGMATIC, however I have noted that you are a hard core christian and >> unfortunatetly I am niether a christian believer, it is also to be noted >> that I am of no worry of your hogwash believes as I know precissly that >> they >> are of no assistance to any Humankind existance. >> Since you cant find space to advance relevent debates and you have >> assigned >> yourself as an agent of the impirialists I will not worry if you do exist >> or >> not it is unfortunate that I have never meet you personaly, though it is >> more safe that I do not, cuase probably you would have know that >> Bolshevicks >> are more prominent than pseudo-communist. as before... >> >> I rest My case!!! >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> >> *To:* [email protected] >> *Sent:* Thu, February 18, 2010 10:26:01 AM >> >> *Subject:* Re: FW: Re: FW: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN >> >> Cde, >> Firstly let me applaud you on the selective manner you chose your >> verses so as to advance your world views on the subject...admittedly >> i'm impressed at the way many people, both from the christian fold as >> well as the non christian fold have really missed the plot on the >> existence of christianity....its essence..on what it seeks to >> achieve.... >> >> >> 1. Christianity is a way of life, a lifestyle that seeks to complete >> the incompleteness of nature...it seeks to address its >> shortfalls..starting with a human being as a custodian of nature. >> 2. It is of the view that is an independent triune being..the >> body...the soul...and the spirit... >> a) the body is all your senses and the physical make-up...all that can >> be touched and seen in a human being... >> b) the soul is your mind, your intellect and your freewill...the mind >> has the conscious mind, the semi conscious mind as well as the >> unconsciuos mind. >> c)your spirit is your conscience...your desire to worship..whether you >> are an atheist or beliver...it is the part that is used by DEVIL >> WORSHIPERS..or SATANISTS who are at a higher level of servitude in >> the dark world...through what is called SPIRITUALISM...a way of living >> your body and joining another body(body number 2) somewhere >> else...either in the sky...underground...or under the ocean.... >> 3. Christianity seeks to show us the origin of all phenomena as well >> as their end result... >> 4. I t also seeks to show us even the economic principles that we >> should pursue...which I find very SOCIALIST...to note but a >> few..Leviticus 25:1-18: >> 1 The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai, 2 "Speak to the Israelites >> and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you, the >> land itself must observe a sabbath to the LORD. 3 For six years sow >> your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their >> crops. 4 But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of >> rest, a sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your >> vineyards. 5 Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of >> your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest. 6 Whatever >> the land yields during the sabbath year will be food for you—for >> yourself, your manservant and maidservant, and the hired worker and >> temporary resident who live among you, 7 as well as for your livestock >> and the wild animals in your land. Whatever the land produces may be >> eaten. >> The Year of Jubilee >> 8 " 'Count off seven sabbaths of years—seven times seven years—so >> that the seven sabbaths of years amount to a period of forty-nine >> years. 9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of >> the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet >> throughout your land. 10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim >> liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a >> jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property >> and each to his own clan. 11 The fiftieth year shall be a jubilee for >> you; do not sow and do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the >> untended vines. 12 For it is a jubilee and is to be holy for you; eat >> only what is taken directly from the fields. >> 13 " 'In this Year of Jubilee everyone is to return to his own property. >> >> 14 " 'If you sell land to one of your countrymen or buy any from him, >> do not take advantage of each other. 15 You are to buy from your >> countryman on the basis of the number of years since the Jubilee. And >> he is to sell to you on the basis of the number of years left for >> harvesting crops. 16 When the years are many, you are to increase the >> price, and when the years are few, you are to decrease the price, >> because what he is really selling you is the number of crops. 17 Do >> not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD >> your God. >> >> 18 " 'Follow my decrees and be careful to obey my laws, and you will >> live safely in the land. 19 Then the land will yield its fruit, and >> you will eat your fill and live there in safety. 20 You may ask, "What >> will we eat in the seventh year if we do not plant or harvest our >> crops?" 21 I will send you such a blessing in the sixth year that the >> land will yield enough for three years. 22 While you plant during the >> eighth year, you will eat from the old crop and will continue to eat >> from it until the harvest of the ninth year comes in. >> >> 23 " 'The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine >> and you are but aliens and my tenants. 24 Throughout the country that >> you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the >> land. >> >> 25 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his >> property, his nearest >> >> >> as well as Deutoronomy 15: >> At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. 2 This is how >> it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to >> his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow >> Israelite or brother, because the LORD's time for canceling debts has >> been proclaimed. 3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you >> must cancel any debt your brother owes you. 4 However, there should be >> no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to >> possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, 5 if only you >> fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these >> commands I am giving you today. 6 For the LORD your God will bless you >> as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow >> from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over >> you. >> 7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of >> the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted >> or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and >> freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this >> wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is >> near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and >> give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you >> will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to him and do so >> without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will >> bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 >> There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you >> to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in >> your land. >> >> Freeing Servants >> 12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and >> serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 >> And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply >> him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your >> winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 >> Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed >> you. That is why I give you this command today. >> 16 But if your servant says to you, "I do not want to leave you," >> because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then >> take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he >> will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant. >> >> 18 Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free..... >> >> 4. When Jesus Christ had to address crowds for the first time in a >> synagogue..( a church that turned to be used by hypocrites)...he said >> to them...as a MISSION STAEMENT OF THE GOSPEL.. >> >> "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has >> anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up >> the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release >> from darkness for the prisoners..." >> ..the Gospel is liberation to the poor...materially, in the souls as >> well as the spirit... >> thre are things that Marxism cannot address even today...issues of the >> spirit...ANGER...AFFLICTION...RESENTMENT...SELF WORTH....CONFLICT OF >> THE SOUL WITHIN...those are all spiritual matters that need to be >> addressed..and Christianity stands to address those....to give hope >> where there is no hope...to turn a test to a testimony...to understand >> the good within bad...vice versa...to understand exremes and >> limits...set human standards...and so on... >> >> Now on the question of tresures and money...and all of that..THE BIBLE >> SAYS:.."LOVE FOR MONEY IS THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL"...and yes indeed it >> is...and socialism was never about love for money...AND IT WILL NEVER >> BE...WELL THE FRENCH CAPITALIST REVOLUTION WAS ABOUT THE LOVE FOR >> MONEY...BUT NOT THE WORKING CLASS REVOLUTION... >> therefore, on Treasures in heaven and treasures of this >> world...interpreted correctly..it simply says..." PLEASE DON'T BE >> PRE-OCCUPIED WITH WEALTH CREATION FOR YOUR OWN GAIN...BECAUSE THAT'S >> WHAT WILL LEAD YOU TO DO TERRIBLE THINGS TO YOUR OWN BROTHER AND TO >> THE SOCIETY AT LARGE...." IN OTHER WORDS, DON'T BE PRE-OCCUPIED WITH >> HOW YOU'LL GET RICH...rather it says, 'GIVE AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN BACK >> UNTO YOU PRESSED DOWN SHAKEN TOGETHER, MAN SHALL BACK ON YOUR BOSSOM >> THE SAME MEASURE THAN YOU GAVE....NO INTEREST NO LESS..THE SAME >> MEASURE....is tha not a communal way of living???????? >> >> you know what I like about this debate is that there is somewhere it >> is leading us...a DEEP REVELATION ABOUT WHERE WE ARE HEADING...and I'm >> greatfull about that... >> >> Now, you can have as many interpretations as ypou can about the >> Bible...but you must understand that thre's nothing that is >> anti-communist about it...but it has been missused by peolple who were >> never christians in the first place...SATANIST PREACHERS WHO PRETEND >> TO BE CHRISTIANS AND YET SATANIST WHO LIKE TO MAKE SPOILS OF POOR >> SOULS...PEOPLE LIKE BENNY HINN AND OTHERS....THOSE ARE REAL TIME >> SATANISTS WHO ARE PROFANING CHRISTIANITY....MOST OF THEM ARE EVEN CIA >> AGENTS... >> >> LASTLY, I DONT THINK I'LL REST BEFORE YOU MAKE A COMMENTORY ON THE BIBLE >> CODE. >> >> REGARDS >> XOLI >> >> confused of the >> > criteria that may have been used to identify you in the ranks of the >> party >> > as you had earlier alluded of your 17 year identification, while unlike >> you >> > I will seek not to degenerate this debate and give categorical >> clarity on >> > this debate "Deployment from Heaven". >> > >> > My understanding of this debate and where it came from was from the >> > reactionary tendencies that might or may have lead the so called >> Christians >> > ambassadors to nullify and derail our revolutionary struggle in >> > bettering >> > the lives of our people, you have however seen it fit to come at their >> > defense in unscientific evidence that almost 90 % of the society is >> > Christian, which I find hard to believe, point is... >> > >> > 1. Christianity and it introduction to the African context has lead to >> > further class divisions, class unconsciousness, and has made our people >> to >> > be more docile in semi-rhetoric interpretations of the world and even in >> > your case of Labor power. >> > 2. Exploitation of the working class comes in various forms and thus >> > Religion had sentient found expression in the form of Christianity. >> > 3. Christianity has and still been used as a referral of justness and >> > apologetically as a substitute of the working class struggle, to letting >> > exploitation find expression in the relief that "God will make a way..." >> > 4. Racial exclamation from means of production, as a fascistic believe >> that >> > "Me of the dark skin shall work in my brothers wine yard.." >> > 5. Christianity has however been the center of patriarchy through its >> > practice and synonymy "Let Simon have 20 wives and 130 concubines..." >> > 6. Christianity is further trajectory of the reality facing us, "Worry >> not >> > of the wealth here in earth as dear Lord my father has created most >> wealth >> > for you to enjoy in heaven..." >> > >> > here are some notes for you to consider yes they are in the same bible >> you >> > so much entrust with the responsibility of changing the society and >> > bettering their lives >> > >> > - On Treasures! >> > Matthew 6 vs 19 "Do not store up yourselves treasures on earth, where >> moth >> > and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal, But store up for >> > yourselves in heaven, were moth and rust do not destroy, were thieves >> wont >> > break and steal..." >> > >> > Since you find it hard to understand points in discussions let me make >> > it >> > easy for you, Indeed as you say if 90 % of our society is Christian >> don't >> > you think its useless for the ANCYL to >> > pursue the Nationalisation of Mines, and dint you think the freedom >> chatter >> > is just a wish list as 90% of our society is defenatly not worried of >> > the >> > wealth of our country. >> > >> > On social emancipation! >> > Matthew 6 vs 25: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, >> what >> > will you eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear...and yet >> the >> > Heavenly farther feeds them... who of you by worrying add a single hour >> in >> > his life?... >> > >> > By this, it suggest that the 90% you reefer to shall not worry if water >> is >> > not given if the bourgeois does not pay for them to put food on the >> table, >> > if they are retrenched or unemployed as "thee Heavenly father will >> provided >> > all. >> > >> > there are more found contradictions within the bible that you have to >> > further clarify comrade Priest as it is not our tusk to transform our >> lives >> > rather to wait for the heavenly father to come >> > down on earth and relieve us from our misery. >> > >> > It is merely my point that should we worry whether or not does heaven >> exist >> > but put more energy in seeking scientific solutions in bettering the >> lives >> > of our people, and only this is trough socialism, that has clear >> indications >> > of giving each according to their needs and all as to their >> contributions, I >> > have not yet seen any progressive drive for us to center in to fallacy >> and >> > seek to out source our revolutionary tusk to this presumed high being as >> to >> > he will sort out and through our prayers hope that he will over come >> > capitalism, class exploitation and finally win for us the class straggle >> > against any form of oppressions by men to men. >> > >> > Further more dear Priest during and after the apartheid regime, >> Christianity >> > was a tool to further weaken us, through religious perceptual of >> morals... >> > it was through the same Christianity morally correct to have a >> > "christian >> > name" and that would presume your >> > unqualified statistics of the 90 % christian. >> > >> > It is further correct that almost 90 % of church goers that you wrongly >> > identify as Christian, while in actual fact are the direct opposite of >> what >> > the initial Christianity should be, take note that in the South African >> > Communist Party we have a constitution that will mark as a guiding >> document >> > to our moral participation to our core communist morale, in which the >> fact >> > that any one who is found to be in breach of this supreme document of >> > the >> > party, its principles, aims, objectives and purpose may and will face >> > disciplinary action from the movement and may or shall be expelled >> > taking >> > cognizance of the violation... >> > >> > But however in this "Christianity vanguardsim" may and sure notably know >> are >> > in contempt of the supreme document (Bible) ingcwadi engcwele, the holly >> > book that can be wrong at no stage, to not but a few Examples... >> > >> > On greed! >> > Matthew 6 vs 24: >> > "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the >> > other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You can >> not >> > serve both God and money..." >> > >> > Well it is clear tatu 'mfundisi that many of your fellow congregates do >> the >> > direct opposite of this, or is it just a fallacy like I noted with >> > you... >> > Tell me it is said that a third of your income should go to serving the >> will >> > of God, do you do as such, has any of your congregates disclosed his/her >> > income so that the church may know its entitled share. >> > >> > On love!! >> > Matthew 5 vs 43: " ... Love your enemies and pray for those who >> > prosecute >> > you, that you may be sons of your father in Heaven. he caused his sun to >> > rise on the evil and the good..." >> > >> > Tell me is that love that we recently got from the deployee from heaven, >> is >> > that love when the society vowed to never again shall it be that the >> country >> > shall be oppressed but >> > some other lobbied for the society to retract the gains of this freedom >> by >> > not going to the polls in last years general elections, those are men of >> of >> > God, anointed by his spirit, was the words attered from them the word of >> > God, is it the holly spirit speaking to us. >> > >> > On Judgment!! >> > Issiah 8 vs 12: "..Do not judge any of your brother... for I the Lord >> shall >> > judge any evil, good for you as I am the will and the way..." >> > >> > Judgments have been thrown to JZ by the presumed man of God, they had >> found >> > expression as the anointed ones... for I am now confused on what are you >> > trying to justify in the degraded fallacy called Christianity. >> > >> > I do not seek to defend neither my position as a non Christian who >> worries >> > not either heaven do or not exist but would seek to build my little >> heaven >> > here. >> > >> > >> > Prescription for your disease comrade Priest, I would suggest you stop >> > wasting your time in trying to >> > negate something that we both know you will fail to do as such, but >> assist >> > us in waving a revolutionary struggle and if not convinced let you first >> try >> > negating the Bible, Ohh!! Forgot it is not questionable it would be a >> > sin >> > for you to question the word of God... but would be very good and >> exceptable >> > for you to try and play mind terrifying games by trying to scare us of >> the >> > impossible... Since you are going to Cuba to pray please make sure that >> you >> > don't tell them that you were recruited by the likes of Utshonyane Chris >> > Hani you would be a disgrace to our struggle, and further don't take a >> > chance in telling them fantasy of you trying to negate Marx writings >> > they >> > will trow you in jail in suspicions of you being a CIA... a reminder on >> what >> > the bible says about fantasy Proverbs 12 vs 11: "...But who chases >> fantasies >> > lacks judgment..." well holy one for you should have known all this >> before >> > you take responsibility >> > of the imperialistic conceptual knowledge. >> > >> > So my friend in all its worth the revolution is defenatly not a minute >> safe >> > with you... advisably as non important as it is you should research >> > about >> > Conspiracy theory maybe you will close off the gabs of your limited >> > analysis... My fellow comrades believes that there is no hope in you, >> > changing from your anarchist stand but however un-Christian as I am I >> still >> > believe there is much but little chance for understanding of tolls and >> the >> > lot. >> > >> > Good luck with your fruitless adventure!!! >> > >> > >> > Regards Sithembewena Che Tsembeyi >> > >> > --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > From: Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: FW: >> > Re: FW: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN >> > To: [email protected] >> > Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 12:55 AM >> > >> > Cde, >> > 1. To say that a comrade is a mere "activist" who will "never" come to >> > the desired level of "being" suggests mental retardation on the part >> > of the "proponent" who would by all means impart such retardation to >> > others so that they can be benchmarked by his/ her state of static >> > retardness...That was offensive and deserved what it got... >> > 2. I find nothing difficult with developing marxism as a system of >> > ideas, nor do I regard Marx as this super-genious...rather I regard >> > him as a person who laid foundation for the development of the >> > society...I can see flaws in his system and like any other >> > system...seeks maintainance... >> > 3. An axiological perspective on class analysis is to study the value >> > system or value judgements of that class analysis...and it >> > doesn't >> > alter our understanding at all but it harnesses and propells it other >> > heights...the Struggle between humanisation...and dehumanisation...the >> > oppressor and the oppressor...the capitalist class and the alienated >> > working class... >> > 4.the point behind the question on "the value of commodified labour >> > (power) to be precise is raised against the incomplete nature of >> > Marxism...and the answer...though it was never included...is quite >> > easily accessible...and it doesn't take a genious...of ntsembeyi's >> > stature or a figure out...but it merely needs research...so here I'm >> > trying to break the religious myth or DOGMA THAT MARXISM IS >> > COMPLETE... >> > 5. With regard to the issue of "value of commodified labour >> > power",..I'm consulting broadly with other socialists >> > internationaly....and they find no anomaly...with anyone making a >> > contribution of developing Marxism...and my intended approach is to >> > come an exegisis...of Das >> > Kapital Vol1... >> > Xoli.. >> > >> > On 2/16/10, Brendan Lee <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> xoli, >> >> >> >> you have missed the point of this forum. >> >> >> >> we do not shoot people or take shots at people here. >> >> >> >> we form a discourse that helps to benifit everybody. >> >> >> >> if you feel that this forum will benefit from your understanding of >> >> the "value of commodified labour" then by all mean start a topic where >> >> this can be discussed. >> >> >> >> retardation is a medical disorder, to suggest that people who struggle >> >> to grapple with issues suffer from a mental disorder is offensive and >> >> shows a complete disregard for understanding on your behalf. >> >> >> >> i often struggle to comprehend complex issues, which is why i ask >> >> comrades to engage with me on these subjects in >> > the hope of all of us >> >> coming to a better understanding and finding clarity in difficult >> >> subjects. this is why this forum exists and are the principles to >> >> which this forum is based on. >> >> >> >> on a side note i have read your comments and seek clarity as to what >> >> is meant by an 'axiological view of class struggle.' of course i >> >> understand the words but in what manner does it alter our >> >> understanding of class struggle >> >> you could say im grappling with an understanding of this statement >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You are subscribed. 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