>First Bill! wrote:
>> In the first scenario resulted in the candidate is
>> dismissed. In the second
>> scenario the candidate is hired.

And then Serge wrote:

Before I start I want to thank you for posting. We need more posts to
stimulate good action on this forum. I want to say ahead of time I'm
tearing your post apart not out of any malice towards you, but just because
I enjoy responding with my perspectives on zen.

* Action can be either good or bad. Even good action can be bad. Good and bad 
perceptions...One man's good is another man's evil. Just look at what is 
happening in
the Middle East today. Without the 5 Precepts, at times it is hard to decide 
which is
good and which is bad. If the only action that comes from this discussion is 
meaningless arguing like the kung-Fu fighters in the Chop-Sockey films: "Ohhh, 
kungfu is better than yours! I'm going to kick your a** to prove it!"  Is 
anyone's Zen
really better than anothers? Or their understanding? Zen is ephemeral, once you 
you've got it, it slipps away like fog on a London night. Can you catch fog in 

>Very logical answer!
Actually it's not an answer based on logic at all. It's an answer based on
observation (in this case reading). There is nothing to deduce. This is
the essence of zen. Nothing hidden, nothing complex, just here and now,
just this.

* Spot on...If Zen is logical, Zen does not exist. As that great Zen Master 
Adams once said, (to paraphraise) If science proves God exists, he will 
dissapear in a
puff of logic. Many people will say that they took up Zen practice because it 
"logical" or "rational". I think they mean that Zen is not "superstitious", and
preoccupied with god-forms...Rather it cuts to the quick of the self. Without 
forms to protect, such as gods, popes, imams, ayatolahs or prophets, Zen has 
nothing to
loose or gain from war. Zen is just zen, nothing more.

>The point of this story is we're missing information
>on why one was hired and one was not.

Of course it's your story so only you know the point, if there is one.
There is, however, no 'point' in zen practice - no goal, no hidden meanings.
Just the story. Just this.

* The story had the stink of a Koan about it. There is no "rational" answer. 
Pepper was
added to the soup and in one case it cost the eater a job, in the other it got 
eater a job. What kind of soup was it? 

>Same thing when
>we try to intellectualize (sp?) Zen with books.

Throw them away! Or maybe send them to Michael...

* One of the Zen teachers, I don't no nor do I care which, said that his books 
useful to guid students to practice. But after that, they are excellent if the 
or stove in the Zendo runs out of wood on a cold day. :)

>It will give you a good base, but never the full story.

Books and intellectualizations don't give you a good base; they give you
more clutter that you'll eventually have to discard. The zen story is not a
full story; it's an empty story.

* Many Chinese and Korean Zen Masters taught by correspondance. most of the 
records we
have of the ancient teachings are from these letters...Even a few sutras... 
letters were personal, the advice geared to the recipient's level of practice 
mind, if you will). But as I sit here, looking at an empty cup full of coffee, I
realize my words won't fit in there too.

>In Zen, you first experience it, as the intellect only
>grabs a portion of the real picture.

Zen is pure experience. 'You' and your 'intellect' stand between you and
pure experience.

* Perhaps the begining and ending of the "intellectual" experience of Zen is at 
the end
of the introductory lecture at the Zendo? Walking into the Zendo, the intellect 
say "ahh, I'm going to practice Zen and see what it is all about". One of the 
things that the student will learn is there is no "you" and no 
of intellect is an impediment, as you said.

>The way I imagine...[...balance cut because I'm sleepy and am going to

>Good Zazen!

..as opposed to Bad Zazen?

For me, Good Zazen is when you get to sit, whereas Bad Zazen is when you 

John - whose empty cup full of coffee can hold no more words, or coffee...

Ki is extending,
John Davis

"Let us have a Universal Mind
that loves and protects all creation 
and helps all things grow and develop. 
To unify mind and body and become One with the Universe 
is the ultimate purpose of our study."
                                 -- Koichi Tohei Sensei

"Masakatsu - Righteous victory, proper attitude 
Agatsu - Victory over self 
Katsuhayahi - Victory over speed of light, doing things so perfectly that time 
is no longer a factor"
                                 -- Akira Tohei Sensei, no relation to  the 
above. This from an interview in www.aikidoonline.com/ .

"Beware the Medical-Industrial Complex!"
                                -- John Davis
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