Well Bill, You are not wrong.  Truth is however always naked and naive.  The challenge really depends on who asks what in what context.

If you recall, historically many great Chan masters in China were chased after to be eliminated.  :-)

Perhaps, we better stay at "All teaching is Chan teaching."   "Chan practice is not practice. Just called practice."  "No path is also the path." 


Bill Smart wrote:

Jue Miao Jing Ming,

Thailand is fine. No snow. No rain. 30+ deg C (about 80F).

1. I also believe Chan (zen) extracted the essence of Buddhism and Taoism, but in doing so extracted the essence of Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc…, in fact the essence of all religion. That is why I try to distance zen from Buddhism sometimes. Zen is just too confined by Buddhism in most peoples’ minds. It’s okay most of the time, but I’d like to see people view zen in a large light than just that associated with Buddhism. This is one of my main themes on this forum, so expect it again in the future.

2. I agree with only some of your comments on opinions. In my thinking opinions can't be incomplete. They are just what they are - opinions. If opinions are put to the test and someone is as to JUSTIFY an opinion, then that justification can certainly be (and usually is) incomplete, or unsatisfactory - especially to someone who holds a different opinion.

There is no way to comment, that I've found, on a forum such as this about 'all perspective and all angles'. That is why zen discourages rational explanations and even words. Wordless Transmission is at the heart of zen teachings. As soon as you open your mouth you are lost! Like the zen story of the man who is hanging from a cliff by his teeth, and his hands are bound behind him. Below him are hungry tigers. He is asked, "What is Buddha mind?". If he speaks he will fall and be devoured by hungry tigers. If he does not speak he will fail his Bodhisattva vow to help save all sentient beings. What does he do?

All on this forum are feeding the hungry tigers. And that includes me.


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]com]
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: D.L.

Hi Bill,

How is Thailand? Snowing like GuangTong?

You have raised two points. There are valid ones.

1. Based on my limited understanding, Chan is resulted from extracting the essence of Buddhism and Taoism. But I am not sure how important it is to define or differentiate or categorize it.
2. My points about DL were made to illustrate the relative nature of issues or forms. All end results are caused by generations of causes. Any opinion expressed usually is based on a position, once a position or multiple positions are taken up, the opinion itself becomes incomplete. Is there a way to comment by including all the perspectives and angles with our current language tools? All forms are relative and interdependent to other forms. Opinions result us to be lost in relativities.


Bill Smart wrote:
Jue Miao Jing Ming,

Thanks for the history lesson. I was aware of all of those things except the part about Mongolia. I thought it still was a part of China. In any event the state of being part of China or not part of China is, like all things, transitory. Some years high hemlines are in; some years they are not.

Anyway my point was, and the only point that should be pertinent in this forum, what does all this have to do with zen? Is or should the nationalistic aspirations of a country, or their people’s fight for political freedom or social equality, linked somehow to zen? I think not. In my opinion zen practice does not concern itself with and is not influenced by such things.

I might add here that I don’t consider zen and Buddhism the same thing, nor do I consider zen a sub-set of Buddhism, nor inextricably associated with Buddhism in any way. So, if your answer is going to be that social justice is a concern of Buddhism, you’re not answering my question. My questions is about zen, not Buddhism.

Thanks again for your post…Bill!

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]com]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:41 PM
Subject: [Zen] Re: D.L.

As always, each time, when we expressed an opinion, we could take usually just one position. This DL issue is much more complicated and no different than most of the world events. How can we express all the opinions from all different angles with language? I don't know the answer.

Here are some different angles...

The Tibetan religion is propagated on the reincarnation of the next leader. When the monks rushed DL out, at such young age, was trying to protect the linage. At that moment, their motives perhaps was quite simple.

Thanks to DL, the world now realized that there is such a place called Tibet and their Ripoche is all over the world teaching Tibetan-Buddhism.

How many of you understood what happened to Mongolia? It used to be part of China. Now it is not.

Why can't the Chinese government leave the Tibetans alone. They lived for generations in Tibet without ever interfered in Chinese politics.

Historically to most of the China men, Tibet and Mongolia are not the Han race. Therefore usually the non-Han are regarded as non-Chinese, or shall I shall barbarians. The Han's never really respected all the other races in China. In the US, people are at least aware of the racial issues. In China, the racial issue does not exist, because that's the way it always is and always will be. i.e. Servants are still being bought (like slaves) and send as gift s among the rich in China today.

China's democracy will be possible only after the traditional, deep rooted social classes are normalized. This will take generations, because it was not being exposed or shall I educated to the general public. Money is power is what the Chinese believed in for 5,000 years. Not human value. Pity is what most the Chinese practiced than compassion deep down inside.

Well? :-)

Al wrote:
From: "Cynth" <Chinese Army would have him assassinated and they'd
> choose his replacement to control the people of Tibet.

They chose his replacement anyway. Lama is the leader of a government in
exile, which is a lot like being the gal standing outside your former
employment, picketing after you have been fired.

The bottom line is that if the Dalai Lama were to walk the walk, he would be
in Tibet. Whether he would be a martyr or not? Odds are that he would be
imprisoned. Nelson Mandela spent 24 years in prison for what he believed.
Jesus Christ gave up his life for what he believed. So did Ghandhi and a
whole laundry list of religious figures throughout history. The pages of
history are colored with the blood of martyrs.

Dolly Lama is certainly not one of them. He prefers paid speaking
engagements to martyrdom. Dolly sits in his mansion sipping mint julips
while anonymous monks get martyred on his behalf. A real hero.

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