Chuck,

This is a very good question and a key to my beliefs.

The self is an illusion (maya), so no beings actually have a self.  Karma is
also maya, and is only applicable to beings that have the illusion of self.
Since an enlightened being does not have the illusion of self, so also does
not have the illusion of karma.

.Bill!  

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Chuck Gierhart
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:01 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Dear Bill

 

Bill,

 

Is it the case that enlightened beings do not have a self and unenlightened
beings do? Or is it the case that no being has a self and only enlightened
beings are fully aware of the fact?

 

Chuck

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 3:41 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Dear Bill

 

Chuck,

Regarding enlightenment and karma: 

Karma can be explained simply, and as you have stated in the post below, as
the  'consequences of one's actions'.  An enlightened being has no self, so
does not act nor is acted upon.  Also, having no self, there is nothing to
which the karma could be assigned or accumulate.

Just/Unjust, Good/Bad or any other dualistic labels are not applicable to
karma.  If you are subject to karma, karma just is (Al, justice?).  If you
are not subject to karma, then just bow, turn around and leave.

.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Chuck Gierhart
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:25 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Dear Bill

 

Bill,

 

Regarding enlightenment and karma, I suspect that it is not so much that an
enlightened being is exempt from karma, but rather that they act so
skillfully that their behavior does not create it. I do not pretend  to
understand how it is possible for the consequences of one's actions to have
only neutral consequences. Perhaps it depends on one's intentions.

 

I also suspect that  karmic consequences  can only be viewed as anomalous
(Would "unjust" be a better word?) when limited to a certain temporal frame
of reference.  Buddhists claim that consequences of actions taken in other
lives may manifest in this life, hence good things can happen to (seemingly)
bad people and visa versa.  I guess this means that we will never have
enough information to label anything that befalls anyone as just or unjust .
. . it just is.

 

Chuck

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Dear Bill

 

Chuck,

Thanks for your post.

I have read extensively on the Buddhist doctrine of Dependant Origination.
On the surface it seems to contradict what I believe, but on deeper level it
may be a way to ameliorate or explain away karmic anomalies.

My interest on this topic is twofold, one zen/Buddhist-related and one not:

.         The zen/Buddhist-related slant focuses on karma, and my
interpretations of teachings that a fully-enlightened being is not subject
to karma.

.         The other slant focuses on what I believe are anomalies in
predictability and probability theory which have I have observed in my
professional life in which I do descriptive and predictive data analysis.

Thanks again for your suggestion.

.Bill! 

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Chuck Gierhart
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:34 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Dear Bill

 

I cannot help with time, but you may want to look at "the doctrine of
dependant origination" on the subject of cause and effect.

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 5:36 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Dear Bill

 

Panda,

 

Send an email to me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] so I can get your email address,
and I'll send you something on this.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of pandabananasock
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 4:31 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Dear Bill

 

I hope you have not forgotten to dig up that material you have been 
working on regarding time/cause&effect. What it something I said??

Really though, if you are still willing to share, I'd still love to 
take a look!

P-P-P-Panda



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