Anthony, My remarks/responses are embedded below:
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The koan you quoted, "show me your face before your mother was born" should read, "show me your face before your mother gave birth to you." That is more relevant, as there is no direct connection between 'your mother' and your self. I quoted the koan correctly: 'before your mother was born'. Koans have nothing whatsoever to do with relevance. > The Chinese meaning of 'satori' is 'awakening' or 'awakened'. And 'kensho' is 'seeing your nature'. But meanings can changed, dictated by usage. Thanks for these translations. They are compatible with my understanding of the way they are used in Japanese Zen Buddhism. > One of the reasons why zen fails to attract ordinary people is that after satori you just eat when you are hungry, sleep when you are sleepy etc. That seems boring. In Christianity and Islam, you go to heaven to enjoy yourselves permanently. What is your explanation? I know of no zen schools that prosyletise, so attracting people is not high on their agenda. The general attitude I've heard concerning this is that 'people will come when they're ready'. > The other aspect that is seldom mentioned is whether I can add 'I have sex when I feel lust' to '... eat... sleep'? Sex is one of the common activities human beings do. You cannot ignore it. There are a lot of other aspects you could add. Sex is certainly one of them. I don't ignore it, but I'm not obsessed with it either. When horny, I have sex, if my partner is willing. Okay? ...Bill! > Regards, > Anthony > > --- On Fri, 19/9/08, Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [Zen] Re: What's after Satori > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, 19 September, 2008, 9:30 AM > > > > > > > JMJM, > > 1. Yes, I believe the term 'satori' and the term 'enlightnement' > mean the same thing. > 2. Satori could indeed be called as you suggest 'witness the > Original Self'. One of the 'breakthrough' koans used to > induce 'kensho' (first experience of satori) is 'Show me your face > before your mother was born.' The certainly refers to your 'Original > Self', or your Buddha Nature. > > ....Bill! > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦â¢Ã§Â²Â¾Ã¦ËŽ > <chan.jmjm@ ..> wrote: > > > > Thank you guys for trying. Two more questions: > > > > 1. Is satori enlightenment? > > 2. If you agree that Satori is an irreversible transition. Then > it > > could be what we called, "witness the Original Self." I don't know > > whether zen has similar term? > > > > Thanks, JM > > > > Bill Smart wrote: > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > You are right. I corrected this post in a subsequent post. I > > > wrote 'satori' but meant 'kensho'. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com <mailto:Zen_ Forum% > 40yahoogroups. com>, > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > I don't think satori is a term used just for a first awakening > > > > implying there may be others. There is some disagreement, but in > > > > almost all of the Zen enlightenment stories satori is described > as > > > if > > > > it is a permanent and irreversible transition. Frankly I doubt > > > that > > > > is true in all cases. If so each would still be a satori. > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2008, at 3:32 PM, Bill Smart wrote: > > > > > > > > > JMJM, > > > > > > > > > > 'Satori' is a term used in Japanese Zen Buddhism to describe > the > > > > > first awakening. It is thought to come suddenly (even though > there > > > > > might have been a lot of preparation) , and is thought to be > > > temporary > > > > > (does not last a long time - maybe just minutes with a strong > > > memory > > > > > or sense of what it was like lasting for days and months). > There > > > is > > > > > thought to be a difference in 'satori' and 'enlightenment' > only in > > > > > degree of awareness and durability (how long it lasts) of the > > > > > experience. Fundamentally awakening is awakening. There is no > > > > > difference. > > > > > > > > > > In Japanese Zen Buddhism teachings, after satori, would come a > > > > > regimine of either continued zazen (shikantaza) or koan > study - or > > > > > both. Both of these would be done under the tutelege of a zen > > > roshi > > > > > who would direct the students teaching during dokusans > (private > > > > > interviews). Dokusans are usually daily, but depending on the > > > number > > > > > of students could be more or less than that. During this > period > > > the > > > > > roshi helps the student refine his/her awakening experience so > > > that > > > > > it can be gradually incorporated into the everyday activies > of the > > > > > student. > > > > > > > > > > This is the way I was taught in a Japanese Zen Buddhist zendo > many > > > > > years ago. All of this does not now represent my current > > > > > understanding of 'enlightenment' (Just THIS!). > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>, Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > > èæúÃ¥æââ¢Ã§Ã²Ã¾Ã¦ÃÅ"à ½ > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, What I meant was, Edgar mentioned enlightenment comes > after > > > > > Satori. > > > > > > Is there anything else we could to do to realize that? How > about > > > > > to be > > > > > > Buddha? Do you talk about any of these? Do you talk about > merit? > > > > > Or > > > > > > just slap on your face? Thanks, Donald ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Smart wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After satori some lose the ability to write complete > > > sentences and > > > > > > > respond to everything in loosely connected phrases... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just kidding! ;>) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siminotes, Welcome! I haven't seen you on the forum > before. I > > > hope > > > > > > > you will continue to participate. I enjoy your posts. I > > > especially > > > > > > > enjoyed one a few posts ago in which you posted: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Self arises and dissapears with interaction. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The Self is a by product, not a permanent thing." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I liked this description a lot....Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> <mailto:Zen_ Forum% > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com>, > > > > > > > "siminotes" <dscochrain@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > peace and serenity... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and nothing special..... living our lives and learning > to be > > > more > > > > > > > > skillful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no difference, satori no satori.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just more aware... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nothing special.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>, Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > > > > ÃÆ'èÃâæÃâúÃÆ'ÃÂ¥Ãâæâââ¬Å¾Ã¢ ÃÆ'çÃâòÃâþÃÆ'æÃâ¹Ã "Ãâ¦Ã½ > > > > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What does your teaching say, if any, what to do after > > > Satori? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, all teaching by itself is maya. But the > > > teacher may > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > said something... . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New Email addresses available on Yahoo! > Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. > Hurry before someone else does! > http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/ > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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