I'm sure there are a select few who will ever experience satori. But 
I do know that when I was deep into my practice I was NEVER bored. I 
was always in the moment, no matter what that moment brought. And 
those moments that there was 'nothing to do' I cherished the most. 

It is my belief that Zen does not try to convince you of anything 
outside of the fact that you stand in the way of your own 
enlightenment. People may try to convince you of the benefits of Zen, 
but Zen in and of itself does not call for followers. 

Chris

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>  
> Do you mean to say, 'zen does NOT try to convince you...'?
>  
> Regards,
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Sat, 20/9/08, Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [Zen] Re: What's after Satori you can do without being 
bored
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, 20 September, 2008, 9:15 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony,
> 
> I forgot to address the 'boring' issue you raised...
> 
> You wrote:
> > > One of the reasons why zen fails to attract ordinary people is 
> that 
> > after satori you just eat when you are hungry, sleep when you are 
> > sleepy etc. That seems boring. In Christianity and Islam, you go 
to 
> > heaven to enjoy yourselves permanently. What is your explanation?
> 
> I addressed your remark about zen failing to attract people, but 
did 
> not address the 'boring' part.
> 
> If you perform an action with your whole being, such as eating or 
> sleeping or having sex, you will not be bored. You are bored when 
> you are half-doing one thing and thinking about something else. 
When 
> you're mowing the grass you should just mow the grass. You should 
> not be mowing the grass while thinking about what you're going to 
do 
> when your finished, like play golf or go swimming. If you do that 
> while mowing the grass you'll be bored.
> 
> Zen does try to convince you to be good or bad for fear of 
punishment 
> or promise of reward. Zen does not promise you a future heaven. If 
> you're interested in that you can have it right here, right now. In 
> fact even Jesus was reported to have said as much when he said '... 
> the Kingdom of Heaven is within you.' Luke 17:21. Buddha Nature is 
> within you. You just have to look for it. The search and your life 
> after finding it is definitely not boring.
> 
> ....Bill!
> 
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, "Bill Smart" <BillSmart@ ..> 
wrote:
> >
> > Anthony,
> > 
> > My remarks/responses are embedded below:
> > 
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The koan you quoted, "show me your face before your mother was 
> > born" should read, "show me your face before your mother gave 
birth 
> > to you." That is more relevant, as there is no direct connection 
> > between 'your mother' and your self.
> > 
> > I quoted the koan correctly: 'before your mother was born'. Koans 
> > have nothing whatsoever to do with relevance.
> > 
> > > The Chinese meaning of 'satori' is 'awakening' or 'awakened'. 
> > And 'kensho' is 'seeing your nature'. But meanings can changed, 
> > dictated by usage.
> > 
> > Thanks for these translations. They are compatible with my 
> > understanding of the way they are used in Japanese Zen Buddhism.
> > 
> > > One of the reasons why zen fails to attract ordinary people is 
> that 
> > after satori you just eat when you are hungry, sleep when you are 
> > sleepy etc. That seems boring. In Christianity and Islam, you go 
to 
> > heaven to enjoy yourselves permanently. What is your explanation?
> > 
> > I know of no zen schools that prosyletise, so attracting people 
is 
> > not high on their agenda. The general attitude I've heard 
> concerning 
> > this is that 'people will come when they're ready'.
> >  
> > > The other aspect that is seldom mentioned is whether I can 
add 'I 
> > have sex when I feel lust' to '... eat... sleep'? Sex is one of 
the 
> > common activities human beings do. You cannot ignore it.
> > 
> > There are a lot of other aspects you could add. Sex is certainly 
> one 
> > of them. I don't ignore it, but I'm not obsessed with it either. 
> > When horny, I have sex, if my partner is willing. Okay?
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Anthony
> > > 
> > > --- On Fri, 19/9/08, Bill Smart <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > > 
> > > From: Bill Smart <BillSmart@>
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: What's after Satori
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> > > Date: Friday, 19 September, 2008, 9:30 AM
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > JMJM,
> > > 
> > > 1. Yes, I believe the term 'satori' and the 
term 'enlightnement' 
> > > mean the same thing.
> > > 2. Satori could indeed be called as you suggest 'witness the 
> > > Original Self'. One of the 'breakthrough' koans used to 
> > > induce 'kensho' (first experience of satori) is 'Show me your 
> face 
> > > before your mother was born.' The certainly refers to 
> > your 'Original 
> > > Self', or your Buddha Nature.
> > > 
> > > ....Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 
> > 覺妙精æËÅ"Ž 
> > > <chan.jmjm@ ..> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thank you guys for trying. Two more questions:
> > > > 
> > > > 1. Is satori enlightenment?
> > > > 2. If you agree that Satori is an irreversible transition. 
Then 
> > > it 
> > > > could be what we called, "witness the Original Self." I don't 
> > know 
> > > > whether zen has similar term?
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks, JM
> > > > 
> > > > Bill Smart wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > >
> > > > > You are right. I corrected this post in a subsequent post. I
> > > > > wrote 'satori' but meant 'kensho'.
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com <mailto:Zen_ Forum%
> > > 40yahoogroups. com>, 
> > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't think satori is a term used just for a first 
> awakening
> > > > > > implying there may be others. There is some disagreement, 
> but 
> > in
> > > > > > almost all of the Zen enlightenment stories satori is 
> > described 
> > > as
> > > > > if
> > > > > > it is a permanent and irreversible transition. Frankly I 
> doubt
> > > > > that
> > > > > > is true in all cases. If so each would still be a satori.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sep 18, 2008, at 3:32 PM, Bill Smart wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > JMJM,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 'Satori' is a term used in Japanese Zen Buddhism to 
> > describe 
> > > the
> > > > > > > first awakening. It is thought to come suddenly (even 
> > though 
> > > there
> > > > > > > might have been a lot of preparation) , and is thought 
to 
> be
> > > > > temporary
> > > > > > > (does not last a long time - maybe just minutes with a 
> > strong
> > > > > memory
> > > > > > > or sense of what it was like lasting for days and 
> months). 
> > > There
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > thought to be a difference in 'satori' 
> and 'enlightenment' 
> > > only in
> > > > > > > degree of awareness and durability (how long it lasts) 
of 
> > the
> > > > > > > experience. Fundamentally awakening is awakening. There 
> is 
> > no
> > > > > > > difference.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In Japanese Zen Buddhism teachings, after satori, would 
> > come a
> > > > > > > regimine of either continued zazen (shikantaza) or koan 
> > > study - or
> > > > > > > both. Both of these would be done under the tutelege of 
a 
> > zen
> > > > > roshi
> > > > > > > who would direct the students teaching during dokusans 
> > > (private
> > > > > > > interviews). Dokusans are usually daily, but depending 
on 
> > the
> > > > > number
> > > > > > > of students could be more or less than that. During 
this 
> > > period
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > roshi helps the student refine his/her awakening 
> experience 
> > so
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > it can be gradually incorporated into the everyday 
> activies 
> > > of the
> > > > > > > student.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is the way I was taught in a Japanese Zen Buddhist 
> > zendo 
> > > many
> > > > > > > years ago. All of this does not now represent my current
> > > > > > > understanding of 'enlightenment' (Just THIS!).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com 
> > > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
> > > > > ÃÆ'¨Â¦ÂºÃÆ'¥Â¦â„¢
ÃÆ'§Â²Â¾ÃÆ'¦ËÅ"Ž
> > > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi, What I meant was, Edgar mentioned enlightenment 
> comes 
> > > after
> > > > > > > Satori.
> > > > > > > > Is there anything else we could to do to realize 
that? 
> > How 
> > > about
> > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > Buddha? Do you talk about any of these? Do you talk 
> about 
> > > merit?
> > > > > > > Or
> > > > > > > > just slap on your face? Thanks, Donald ?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill Smart wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > After satori some lose the ability to write complete
> > > > > sentences and
> > > > > > > > > respond to everything in loosely connected 
phrases...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just kidding! ;>)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Siminotes, Welcome! I haven't seen you on the forum 
> > > before. I
> > > > > hope
> > > > > > > > > you will continue to participate. I enjoy your 
posts. 
> I
> > > > > especially
> > > > > > > > > enjoyed one a few posts ago in which you posted:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Self arises and dissapears with interaction. "
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "The Self is a by product, not a permanent thing."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I liked this description a lot....Bill!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com 
> > > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> <mailto:Zen_ Forum%
> > > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com>,
> > > > > > > > > "siminotes" <dscochrain@ > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > peace and serenity...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > and nothing special..... living our lives and 
> > learning 
> > > to be
> > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > skillful.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > no difference, satori no satori....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > just more aware...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > nothing special....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com 
> > > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>, Jue Miao 
Jing 
> > Ming -
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'¨ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'â
€šÃ‚ºÃÆ'Æ'Â¥ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'¢ââ
‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢
> > ÃÆ'Æ'§ÃÆ'‚²ÃÆ'â
€šÃ‚¾ÃÆ'Æ'¦ÃÆ'‹Å"ÃÆ'…½
> > > > > > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What does your teaching say, if any, what to do 
> > after
> > > > > Satori?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Of course, all teaching by itself is maya. But 
the
> > > > > teacher may
> > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > said something... .
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > JM
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > New Email addresses available on Yahoo!
> > > Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail 
and 
> > @rocketmail. 
> > > Hurry before someone else does!
> > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ sg/
> > >
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
__________________________________________________________________ 
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