Yes...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>  
> Do you mean to say, 'zen does NOT try to convince you...'?
>  
> Regards,
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Sat, 20/9/08, Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [Zen] Re: What's after Satori you can do without being 
bored
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, 20 September, 2008, 9:15 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony,
> 
> I forgot to address the 'boring' issue you raised...
> 
> You wrote:
> > > One of the reasons why zen fails to attract ordinary people is 
> that 
> > after satori you just eat when you are hungry, sleep when you are 
> > sleepy etc. That seems boring. In Christianity and Islam, you go 
to 
> > heaven to enjoy yourselves permanently. What is your explanation?
> 
> I addressed your remark about zen failing to attract people, but 
did 
> not address the 'boring' part.
> 
> If you perform an action with your whole being, such as eating or 
> sleeping or having sex, you will not be bored. You are bored when 
> you are half-doing one thing and thinking about something else. 
When 
> you're mowing the grass you should just mow the grass. You should 
> not be mowing the grass while thinking about what you're going to 
do 
> when your finished, like play golf or go swimming. If you do that 
> while mowing the grass you'll be bored.
> 
> Zen does try to convince you to be good or bad for fear of 
punishment 
> or promise of reward. Zen does not promise you a future heaven. If 
> you're interested in that you can have it right here, right now. In 
> fact even Jesus was reported to have said as much when he said '... 
> the Kingdom of Heaven is within you.' Luke 17:21. Buddha Nature is 
> within you. You just have to look for it. The search and your life 
> after finding it is definitely not boring.
> 
> ....Bill!
> 
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, "Bill Smart" <BillSmart@ ..> 
wrote:
> >
> > Anthony,
> > 
> > My remarks/responses are embedded below:
> > 
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The koan you quoted, "show me your face before your mother was 
> > born" should read, "show me your face before your mother gave 
birth 
> > to you." That is more relevant, as there is no direct connection 
> > between 'your mother' and your self.
> > 
> > I quoted the koan correctly: 'before your mother was born'. Koans 
> > have nothing whatsoever to do with relevance.
> > 
> > > The Chinese meaning of 'satori' is 'awakening' or 'awakened'. 
> > And 'kensho' is 'seeing your nature'. But meanings can changed, 
> > dictated by usage.
> > 
> > Thanks for these translations. They are compatible with my 
> > understanding of the way they are used in Japanese Zen Buddhism.
> > 
> > > One of the reasons why zen fails to attract ordinary people is 
> that 
> > after satori you just eat when you are hungry, sleep when you are 
> > sleepy etc. That seems boring. In Christianity and Islam, you go 
to 
> > heaven to enjoy yourselves permanently. What is your explanation?
> > 
> > I know of no zen schools that prosyletise, so attracting people 
is 
> > not high on their agenda. The general attitude I've heard 
> concerning 
> > this is that 'people will come when they're ready'.
> >  
> > > The other aspect that is seldom mentioned is whether I can 
add 'I 
> > have sex when I feel lust' to '... eat... sleep'? Sex is one of 
the 
> > common activities human beings do. You cannot ignore it.
> > 
> > There are a lot of other aspects you could add. Sex is certainly 
> one 
> > of them. I don't ignore it, but I'm not obsessed with it either. 
> > When horny, I have sex, if my partner is willing. Okay?
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Anthony
> > > 
> > > --- On Fri, 19/9/08, Bill Smart <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > > 
> > > From: Bill Smart <BillSmart@>
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: What's after Satori
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> > > Date: Friday, 19 September, 2008, 9:30 AM
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > JMJM,
> > > 
> > > 1. Yes, I believe the term 'satori' and the 
term 'enlightnement' 
> > > mean the same thing.
> > > 2. Satori could indeed be called as you suggest 'witness the 
> > > Original Self'. One of the 'breakthrough' koans used to 
> > > induce 'kensho' (first experience of satori) is 'Show me your 
> face 
> > > before your mother was born.' The certainly refers to 
> > your 'Original 
> > > Self', or your Buddha Nature.
> > > 
> > > ....Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 
> > 覺妙精æËÅ"Ž 
> > > <chan.jmjm@ ..> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thank you guys for trying. Two more questions:
> > > > 
> > > > 1. Is satori enlightenment?
> > > > 2. If you agree that Satori is an irreversible transition. 
Then 
> > > it 
> > > > could be what we called, "witness the Original Self." I don't 
> > know 
> > > > whether zen has similar term?
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks, JM
> > > > 
> > > > Bill Smart wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > >
> > > > > You are right. I corrected this post in a subsequent post. I
> > > > > wrote 'satori' but meant 'kensho'.
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com <mailto:Zen_ Forum%
> > > 40yahoogroups. com>, 
> > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't think satori is a term used just for a first 
> awakening
> > > > > > implying there may be others. There is some disagreement, 
> but 
> > in
> > > > > > almost all of the Zen enlightenment stories satori is 
> > described 
> > > as
> > > > > if
> > > > > > it is a permanent and irreversible transition. Frankly I 
> doubt
> > > > > that
> > > > > > is true in all cases. If so each would still be a satori.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sep 18, 2008, at 3:32 PM, Bill Smart wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > JMJM,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 'Satori' is a term used in Japanese Zen Buddhism to 
> > describe 
> > > the
> > > > > > > first awakening. It is thought to come suddenly (even 
> > though 
> > > there
> > > > > > > might have been a lot of preparation) , and is thought 
to 
> be
> > > > > temporary
> > > > > > > (does not last a long time - maybe just minutes with a 
> > strong
> > > > > memory
> > > > > > > or sense of what it was like lasting for days and 
> months). 
> > > There
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > thought to be a difference in 'satori' 
> and 'enlightenment' 
> > > only in
> > > > > > > degree of awareness and durability (how long it lasts) 
of 
> > the
> > > > > > > experience. Fundamentally awakening is awakening. There 
> is 
> > no
> > > > > > > difference.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In Japanese Zen Buddhism teachings, after satori, would 
> > come a
> > > > > > > regimine of either continued zazen (shikantaza) or koan 
> > > study - or
> > > > > > > both. Both of these would be done under the tutelege of 
a 
> > zen
> > > > > roshi
> > > > > > > who would direct the students teaching during dokusans 
> > > (private
> > > > > > > interviews). Dokusans are usually daily, but depending 
on 
> > the
> > > > > number
> > > > > > > of students could be more or less than that. During 
this 
> > > period
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > roshi helps the student refine his/her awakening 
> experience 
> > so
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > it can be gradually incorporated into the everyday 
> activies 
> > > of the
> > > > > > > student.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is the way I was taught in a Japanese Zen Buddhist 
> > zendo 
> > > many
> > > > > > > years ago. All of this does not now represent my current
> > > > > > > understanding of 'enlightenment' (Just THIS!).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com 
> > > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
> > > > > ÃÆ'¨Â¦ÂºÃÆ'¥Â¦â„¢
ÃÆ'§Â²Â¾ÃÆ'¦ËÅ"Ž
> > > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi, What I meant was, Edgar mentioned enlightenment 
> comes 
> > > after
> > > > > > > Satori.
> > > > > > > > Is there anything else we could to do to realize 
that? 
> > How 
> > > about
> > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > Buddha? Do you talk about any of these? Do you talk 
> about 
> > > merit?
> > > > > > > Or
> > > > > > > > just slap on your face? Thanks, Donald ?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill Smart wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > After satori some lose the ability to write complete
> > > > > sentences and
> > > > > > > > > respond to everything in loosely connected 
phrases...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just kidding! ;>)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Siminotes, Welcome! I haven't seen you on the forum 
> > > before. I
> > > > > hope
> > > > > > > > > you will continue to participate. I enjoy your 
posts. 
> I
> > > > > especially
> > > > > > > > > enjoyed one a few posts ago in which you posted:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Self arises and dissapears with interaction. "
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "The Self is a by product, not a permanent thing."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I liked this description a lot....Bill!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com 
> > > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> <mailto:Zen_ Forum%
> > > > > > > 40yahoogroups. com>,
> > > > > > > > > "siminotes" <dscochrain@ > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > peace and serenity...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > and nothing special..... living our lives and 
> > learning 
> > > to be
> > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > skillful.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > no difference, satori no satori....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > just more aware...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > nothing special....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com 
> > > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>, Jue Miao 
Jing 
> > Ming -
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'¨ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'â
€šÃ‚ºÃÆ'Æ'Â¥ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'¢ââ
‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢
> > ÃÆ'Æ'§ÃÆ'‚²ÃÆ'â
€šÃ‚¾ÃÆ'Æ'¦ÃÆ'‹Å"ÃÆ'…½
> > > > > > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What does your teaching say, if any, what to do 
> > after
> > > > > Satori?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Of course, all teaching by itself is maya. But 
the
> > > > > teacher may
> > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > said something... .
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > JM
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > New Email addresses available on Yahoo!
> > > Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail 
and 
> > @rocketmail. 
> > > Hurry before someone else does!
> > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ sg/
> > >
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
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>       
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