Mike,
Thank you so much for your informative comments which I will mull over (together with Bill's.) I appreciate the brevity, precision and clarity of the understandings and insights that you (and Bill) have afforded us. Thanks again. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote: > ED, (1) In meditation practice, is pain a necessary ingredient for the breakthrough to bliss and ecstasy? I don't think it's 100% necessary as I've experienced intense bliss/ecstasy without experiencing pain beforehand (a spontaneous mystical experience). However, as far as vipassana goes, the pain does seem to precede the pleasure and is a necessary part of the technique/teaching. And it *works*! (2) Is this phenomenon similar to or identical with the bliss and ecstasy reported by some or many masochists in BDSM practices? Maybe, but the goal (I imagine...) of such a practice is only the desire for such (transient) pleasure and any lessons from such an experience are not recognised or even sought after. (3) Is this experience explainable as a natural process, or does it call for postulating the intervention of supra-natural forces? Personally, I believe this is a completely natural process and was recognised by the historical Buddha as such. (4) Are these cycles of pain and bliss a necessary concomitant of the process of realizing one's Buddha Nature? Yes, I think so. Pain and bliss are the extremes of human experience that we will all experience one way or another. To not understand the transitory nature of these states will never give us a deep and valid understanding of how to live with equanimity. (5) Have Zen masters made any statements concerrning the naturalness or supra-naturalness of 'Buddha Nature'. My reading of the Zen masters who have gone before us points to the complete naturalness and everydayness of 'Buddha Nature'. If anything, it takes a supernatural effort to *not* see what is right in front of our noses. Mike
