Mike:
 
Whatever experience you had with it would do it.  Thanks.
 
Mayka

--- On Wed, 13/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 13 October, 2010, 12:15


  





Mayka,
 
Sure. Which particular aspect of vipassana would you like me to elaborate on?
 
Mike





From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 12 October, 2010 17:46:22
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.

  






Mike:
 
I didn't see your posting as it keeps coming into the spam folder for some 
reason.   Yahoo do this by itself sometimes. 
 
I was wondering if you could share something from your experience in that 10 
days retreat you attended.  
 
Thanks for posting
Mayka 

--- On Tue, 12/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 October, 2010, 3:03


  



Mayka,
 
When I started Zen in Australia the centre I attended was from the Robert 
Aitken lineage. There wasn't really that much emphasis put on them beyond the 
break-thru koans that Bill has already mentioned. Here in Japan I just sit 
(instruction in English is very rare) although I find I'm attending the temples 
less and less and just trying to be mindful in everyday life (I've also found 
the 10 day Vipassana retreats in Kyoto very helpful for my meditation and would 
recommend it to anyone). No matter how complex looking, the 'secret' with koans 
is to remember that they always lead us to, or back to, this moment now as the 
only reality. How you express this understanding has to be concrete and 
immediate and there are as many 'correct' answers as there are people. 
 
Mike 





From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 10 October, 2010 19:12:15
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.

  






Good morning Bill:
 
I don't have the Microsoft package with word application software but 
the substitute free download called: Open Office Org. Writer.  I write and post 
directly.  My BT Yahoo settings has a spell checker which is not as good as the 
word. I started to make use of it for first time  yesterday posting to you!.  
Better than nothing.  I was wondering if Is there any home software with  word 
application that could be download for free?.  The Open Office is not a great 
deal and it often conflicts and crashes  with the Microsoft windows system. 
 
Thank you for your clear explanations about the koan system.  Although, it's 
also my impression that straight away sitting down with the awareness of the in 
and out breathing is the much easier and simple of all methods.  This one of 
the koans also seems to have its own value.  Agree with you that because it's a 
tricky method one would need a very experienced Teacher from the tradition 
preferably.   Mike lives in Japan so perhaps he may have a Teacher of koans 
over there.  And if we would live near by I could ask you to show me this way.  
It's an interesting method for as long as the one who guides is very 
experienced on the field.  Meantime, Better keep persevering in the awareness 
of the in and out breathing applied as part time daily life practitioner.
 
Thank you!
Mayka
 
Note to all Members:
Any misspellings mistakes in the future complain to yahoo and not to Mayka.
 

--- On Sun, 10/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 9:24


  



Maria Carmen (a.k.a. Mayka),
My responses are embedded below:
 











May I ask you what spell checker do you use?.



[Bill!] I use Microsoft Word to compose my responses, so use the Microsoft 
spellchecker.  I don’t usually read or respond to posts on this forum directly 
in Yahoo!.  I don’t know anything about the Yahoo! spellchecker. 



Questions



  If a person knows in advance that the mind will be entangled with whatever 
given koan, why to get over to all that trouble over and over again with 
different koans?.   Why to keep given more koans if the result will always 
be the same?.

[Bill!] There are a set of koans called ‘breakthrough’ koans.  These are used 
in the beginning to assist the student in stopping their discriminating mind 
and get at least a glimpse of Buddha Nature.  Koans such as this are ‘Mu’, 
‘Show me your face before your mother was born”, ‘What is the sound of one hand 
clapping?’, etc…  Also, some zen masters create a breakthrough koan especially 
for the particular student.  The subsequent koans (koan study) are used to 
deepen and broaden the student’s awareness of Buddha Nature.  The zen master 
picks the appropriate koans to zero-in on some aspect with which he feels the 
student is having trouble, or some illusions to which the student is still 
clinging.  The koan study can consist of as many or as few koans as the zen 
master feels in necessary to bring the student into full awareness. 

Though, I can understand that in all that process the practitioner is having 
the mind concentrated into something that is giving a headache and finally 
finds a release in letting the koan go.   At the same time  if the student let 
the koan go, what is the response that should give to the Teacher asking to 
resolve the koan?.  And how it comes that the Teacher gives a next koan?.  How 
does the Teacher knows that? 


[Bill!] The response that the teacher will accept is completely up to the 
teacher, and I can tell you it is not the same for every student.  I or someone 
else could tell you what they did or said to our zen master to finally pass Mu, 
and you could go into your zen master and do and say the same things and get 
‘rung out’ (abruptly dismissed by the ringing of a bell).  It is up to the 
skill and experience of the zen master to be able to discern if a response is 
genuine and acceptable, or not.  Sometimes this takes more than just a few 
visits to the zen master to satisfy him that you have indeed become aware of 
Buddha Nature.  I answered the questions on how the zen master knows which koan 
to give you next in my response above. 


I suppose as in all zen experience is difficult for me to understand the koan 
part because I've ever worked or have a Teacher who gave me those complicated 
koans.  Though there is a recent koan (if one wants to call that as such) given 
by TNH and that is: "This is a happy moment".

[Bill!] Like I said, koans and koan study are not necessary.  If employed by a 
skilled zen master they can be helpful, but ‘just sitting’ (shikantaza – ‘clear 
mind meditation’) is the end result of all zen training – and this includes 
doing zazen when not sitting on a cushion, but holding the awareness of Buddha 
Mind in everything you do every day. 
…Bill! 
  

 


 



--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:



From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 10:43 

  




Mayka,  (by the way, speaking of misspellings, I have a hard time not spelling 
your name as ‘Makya’ – I don’t know why that is.  I actually had to add the 
proper spelling of your name to my Spellchecker to make sure I get it right…)
  
You ask very good questions and I’ll try to answer: 
  
  
  









I have a question:

 

If the goal of the koans is to lead the student to the non discriminative mind 
and to drop the thinking, what is the point of giving such a nonsense koans 
that leads to more entanglement in the mind?.
[Bill!] The short answer to your question is the discriminating mind needs to 
be entangled so that it can no longer function. 
The purpose of a koan is indeed to assist in stopping the activities of the 
discriminating mind.  This is the mind that creates all illusions, but most 
fundamentally the illusion of duality – self/not-self (or other). 
The way a koan does this is to give your discriminating, rational mind 
something to work on that is non-logical.  Something that cannot be reasoned 
out.  You (your discriminating mind) tries and tries, and finally gives up and 
shuts down.  This could be because it gets frustrated or tired or maybe just 
bored – I don’t know why really, but I know from experience this can finally 
happen.  When it does happen and all thinking stops, Buddha Mind appears - or 
perhaps ‘is revealed’ is better since Buddha Mind was there all the time but in 
the background, being obscured by the much more active, attention-grabbing 
discriminating mind. 
  Is it no much more simple and easier to just sit down and breath in awareness 
of the in and out breathing?.  In a way that every time a thought, sensation, 
mental formation, any kind of distraction...arises one goes back to the 
awareness of the breathing. 
[Bill!] Yes, this is much more simpler and direct.  This is the usual teaching 
advice of Soto Zen.  What you are describing is exactly how a zen master would 
instruct you to sit shikantaza (clear mind).  The more you practise what you’ve 
described, the less often thoughts arise and the more clear mind (Buddha Mind) 
persists. 
If you use ‘getting wet’ as a simile for ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awareness of 
Buddha Mind’, I’ve heard the differences between the use of teaching of just 
shikantaza and the use of koans to be this: 
-          Soto Zen and shikantaza is like being lead out into a peaceful 
garden and left to walk around in a soft mist or very gentle rain.  You get wet 
so gradually you don’t even notice it until you come inside and someone points 
it out to you. 
-          Renzai Zen and koan study is like someone giving you a little puzzle 
to solve, and then while you’re working on it they sneak up behind you and push 
you into a lake.  You’re immediately soaked and come up out of the water 
gasping for air and wondering ‘what just happened to me?’.  The experience is 
then smoothed out and more fully integrated with further koan study. 
  Hope this helps answer your questions…Bill! 

 


--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 2:17 

  



Mayka,
  
I’ve studied under both Renzai and Soto masters.  Generally speaking, Renzai 
uses koans and Soto only shikantaza (clear-mind meditation).  The culmination 
of both teachings is shikantaza.  Koans are just teaching techniques or tools 
used to help you stop your discriminating mind so you can be clearly aware of 
Buddha Nature.
  
Some Soto schools do, however, employ koans.  The teacher I ended my formal 
training with had teaching credentials (Inca) from masters in both Soto and 
Renzai schools.   He tailored his teaching techniques according to the 
student.  Since I started with his Renzai master and began koan study with him, 
he continued to use koan study with me all throughout my training. 
  
To what ‘slaps’ are you referring?   I didn’t read about any ‘slaps’ to a lady 
in the koan that was posted a couple days ago. 
  
…Bill! 
  



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:19 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
  
  





Thanks Jody.  Doesn't the Soto tradition uses koans?.

 

Should be understood them that slaps the lady received in the koan given,  were 
defectuos because nobody can awake anybody else except for oneselves?

 

Mayka

 

 

--- On Fri, 8/10/10, Jody W. Ianuzzi <j...@thewhitehats.com> wrote:


From: Jody W. Ianuzzi <j...@thewhitehats.com>
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 8 October, 2010, 17:10 

  




Hello Mayka,

It is my understanding that Soto Zen is just about sitting and Renzei Zen is
about koans.

When the Roshi slaps a student in Renzei it is not punishment it is to wake
them up and bring them to the moment. The student bows in gratitude for the
reminder.

JODY 


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