Bill!,

No, I don't think you could say that about any other branch of science. Sure, 
opposing views in each branch do exist, but they they're so leftfield 
(creationism) or untestable (string theory) that the main theories are mainly 
supported by the science field at large. If you used a blood-splatter expert in 
court citing principles of physics, then it would be a waste of time to bring a 
'flat-earther' to discredit him.

Mike




________________________________
From: "billsm...@hhs1963.org" <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 25 October, 2010 13:00:51
Subject: RE: [Zen] Zen, Self, I, Me and Mine

  
Mike,

Couldn’t you say the same about any other branch of science?

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
mike brown
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 9:47 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, Self, I, Me and Mine

ED/Bill!,

At best psychology is a pseudo-science. In law school we were taught that 
psychologists make uselss expert witnesses because for every theory argued 
there 
is another one that gives an opposing view, therefore cancelling each other out.

Mike

________________________________________
From: ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 24 October, 2010 21:45:59
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, Self, I, Me and Mine

Bill/Mike,
Google [Is psychology scientific?] and you will get 30 million results from 
which you can select arguments to support whatever POV you hold, which POV was 
already determined for you by your mind for reasons unknown to you or me.
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <billsm...@...> wrote:
>
Mike,
So are you saying that psychology is not scientific?
bill!


Bill!/ED,
Bill, now I have to say that your response reminds me of a creationist exposed 
to an argument from an evolutionist - automatic close-mindedness before fully 
digesting what's been offered! : ) I must admit that the rather Freudian 
flavour 
of the article (I/me/mine) can be somewhat off-putting, but I guess he does 
state that it is only used as a "shorthand" to describe different aspects of 
the 
"self". My major problem with the artcicle is that it seems to presents itself 
as science but in nature is much more about the psychological effects of what 
happens pre- and post kensho. 

Mike 
Bill, Mike, Mayka, JM and All, does this below look kosher to you? Thanks, ED
"Q. Zen emphasizes a kind of selflessness, or self-transcendence. Why is this 
desirable, and why so difficult to achieve? 

Let's take your last question first. It is difficult to escape from the 
lifelong 
habits of our many-sided self. 

This is because some of our egocentricities are not only innate, but are 
habit-patterns that have hardened ever since we were infants. 

It is very difficult to reverse any conditioned behaviors that have had such a 
long head start. 

Zen and the Brain discusses a way to represent -- as a psychological construct 
-- this complex we refer to as "self." For shorthand purposes of description, 
one may think of this "self" in terms of its three interactive components: I , 
Me, and Mine. 

Unfortunately, it takes years to fully realize that this triad combines 
liabilities with assets. True, this I-Me-Mine complex does confer survival 
value 
on each person. 

But many dark, unfruitful aspects also inhabit the triad. The I is arrogant; 
the 
Me feels besieged; the Mine is captured by its greedy impulses. The result 
generates much anguish and impairs our performance. 

Before I started Zen training, I could never have imagined how it would feel to 
lose the "self." Nor could I have then foreseen how much this fact of 
experience 
implies for our scientific understanding of consciousness. 

Only after I underwent two different kinds of alternate state experiences -- 
one 
more superficial and one at a deeper level -- would it become obvious: each 
event had peeled off different layers of my egocentric self. 

A term, internal absorption, describes the first, shallower category of such 
experiences. It briefly dissolves the sense of the physical self. 

In contrast, the later variety reflects a deeper penetration, an "awakening" to 
insight-wisdom. It is also known as kensho-satori in the Zen tradition. In this 
category of experiences, the sense of one's psychic self dissolves.
A gardener might recognize this process as reminiscent of a kind of "pruning." 
Why? Because during this particular "awakening," many unfruitful aspects of the 
triad are seen to drop off. 

Thereafter the person finally starts to become liberated from old, maladaptive 
conditioned responses. 


Source: James H. Austin, M.D. discusses Zen and the Brain ) 
http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/AUSZP/austin/interview.html

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