Edgar and Kristy, I'll jump in again just to say that I don't think sex is that big a driver for men in general. It's not for me and it's not for most of the men I know. It's certainly not enough of a drive to make me want to go out and force myself on someone.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@...> wrote: > > Edgar, >  > I already knew that was what you meant. I understand that, and its true in > many cases. But as I said, there are other opportunities for sexual > satisfaction ourside of marriage, and many use them. >  > My point is-- this is not a one-dimensional causal relationship. But I > know that you recognize this. >  > Have great day! ~ k~ > > > --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? > To: [email protected] > Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 12:25 PM > > >  > > > > Hi Kristy, > > > You misinterpret my words. Most western wives don't satisfy their man's deep > natural psychological needs. That's what's important to inhibit rape. Just > the fact that they provide boring sex simply isn't enough to keep a man from > looking elsewhere. > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Feb 24, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Kristy McClain wrote: > > >  > > > > > > > Edgar, >  > Your conclusions here are simply not accurate. I agreed that sex is one of > the factors t that motivate rape. But being sexually satisfied does not > prevent rapes from occuring. Many, many rapists are married, and have > sexual opportunities with other partners as well. Men have the option of > seeking a sexual submissive, yet that does not influence the rape > incidence. >  > Your comments HERE do offer some insight: >  > "they rape out of unsatisfied desires. If those desires are satisfied they > would never become a rapist. But even a 'normal' man, under enough duress and > unsatisfied desire may become a rapist given a situation" >  > This is not a rape forum, nor do I have the time to access the accurate > research data to continue this discussion here, but I agree that men often > rape due to a combination of unfulfilled needs, their own narcississtic > injuries, bio-chemical and psycho-dynamic processes, in addition to a desire > for sexual release. >  > While I agree that it is an evolutionary trait, that doesn't mean that > we must accept it as is. It means that we have an obligation to work with > these people, with a compassionate heart, in order to better understand how > to re-direct their impulses, and find emotional and physical resolutions in a > peaceful way. >  > Take care, >  > Kristy > > > --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? > To: [email protected] > Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 5:00 AM > > >  > > Hi Kristy, > > > I said "voluntarily" satisfy, not be a sex slave.... In other words if a man > is loved and his desires satisfied by a woman who loves him, he doesn't have > the need to become a rapist. > > > I think the hidden message here is that men aren't born rapists, they rape > out of unsatisfied desires. If those desires are satisfied they would never > become a rapist. But even a 'normal' man, under enough duress and unsatisfied > desire may become a rapist given a situation in which he thinks he can get > away with it. > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:26 PM, Kristy McClain wrote: > > >  > > > > > > > Edgar, >  > I agree fully with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, but I disagree with part of > what you say in the first, when you suggest that the cure for a rapist, is > to have a willing partner to satisfy and indulge his sexual appetite and > fantasiey, whenever he desires it. While i acknowledge that rape is > indeed motivated in part, by sexual urges, it is not the complete > picture. I don't know if you followed the earlier thread wherein I > discussed D/s and voluntary sexual submission /slavery? >  > Having a sexual servant who provides fulfillment for every fantasy, no matter > how dark or violent, does not seem to impact the rape stats, or the cases for > SVU units. So there is more to this. This area is not my range of study > or experience, but clearly, there are other factors. >  > Thanks, >  > Kristy > > > --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? > To: [email protected] > Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 1:56 PM > > >  > > Kristy, > > > Good objective comments. Rape fantasies are indeed common among women, though > of course these are invariably about really appealing lusty guys who won't > take no for an answer rather than men that the woman isn't attracted to as > may well be the case in actual rapes. The cure for rape is of course for the > potential rapist to have a woman who satisfies all his desires voluntarily. > If this is the case he has no need to go elsewhere on any terms. > Unfortunately few women know how to provide this to a man. It's not just > about providing ordinary sex, but fulfilling his deepest psychological needs > as a man as well. > > > Throughout history rape has been quite common and everyone of us is almost > certainly the descendant of one or more rapes in their ancestry. From an > evolutionary perspective rape is quite natural and is an excellent strategy > to maximize one's genetic legacy - if one can get away with it. As ED's > article points out this is usually only the case in when the woman in > question is not under the protection of male family members as is usually the > case in traditional societies. In modern western societies the state has > usurped male protection of women which makes them more vulnerable to rape. > > > Men were given a very strong natural desire to have sex with attractive women > at almost any cost if they can manage it. The genes that give that impetus > have been strengthened because such men tend to leave more descendants > carrying those genes. Every man has at least some desire to rape women he > can't get otherwise though that desire is usually tempered by an equally > strong survival instinct. Men of course have strong rape fantasies as well. > These often take the form of the woman he rapes realizing how wonderful he is > and falling head over heels in love with him because he is such a great lover > whether he actually is or not! > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Feb 23, 2011, at 1:22 PM, Kristy McClain wrote: > > >  > > > > > > > Edgar is indeed correct. It can be "comforting" to believe that the > incentive is power--hatred of women and the like. But the evidence, and > the report from rapists themselves, is that it is indeed about sex. > Though other factors co-exist. >  > 10 years ago, i was moderating a rape-fantasy discussion board, as part of a > training exercise. A clinical psychologist in NY was running a group for > male sex offenders who were in prison. We had many discussions on this, and > the consenses was in agreement with this article. The psychologist > running the group was--himself drawn to the act of rape as a sexual > drive. He told me that the best gift his wife gave him was the acceptance > she offered him when he confessed this to her. She even offered to > role-play a rape scene with him, but he refused. He told me that he felt it > might get out of hand. >  > Its easy to label these men as  monsters as a means to deny their right > to even exist. Brand them. Shun them.  But they do exist, and have > since the dawn of man. If we are all "one", we can only hope to heal if > everyone is included in the process. >  > I may hate child abusers.. but I remember that more often than not, they were > abused too. >  > btw.. There are many, many females who have rape fantasies, as part of > their erotic responses. >  > Remember.. I recognize this is a polarizing topic. I'm not denying the > experience rape has on unwilling females. I'm just offering another > perspective because the only way to ever hope to prevent or heal the > problem, is to look at it with a clear mirror. >  > Edgar, >  > What does the data show on rape when it is done in countries as part of > geneocide? >  > Kristy > > > --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? > To: [email protected] > Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 8:08 AM > > >  > > Rape is primarily about satisfying sexual desire when it can't be achieved > otherwise. Complete power over a woman can be a very strong aphrodisiac. > Especially where violence or injury is involved it can also be combined with > the man's desire for revenge against women for perceived psychological injury > previously suffered at the hands of a woman or women in general by the > rapist. > > > Edgar > > > > > > On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:45 AM, ED wrote: > > >  > > > > > Hi Audrey - > Yours is an assertion that conforms to the usual feminist position. It may > be true or it may not. Has the truth of the assertion been confirmed by say > neurophysiologists and neuropsychologists? > Thanks, ED >  > > --- In [email protected], "audreydc1983" <audreydc1983@> wrote: > > > > I will beg to differ on one point: Rape has little to do with sexual > > desire. It is about power, control, and victimization. > > Those of us who believe sex is a natural product of lust, sexual desire, > > and love often will assume that rape, since it is a sexual act, is > > associated in some way with these feelings. > > This assumption couldn't be further from the truth. If there is any desire > > in rape, it is the desire to control/victimize. > > > > ~Audrey > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
