Hi Chris, >>As far as attention and life, I find my constant challenge comes from finding more parts of my life that I have trouble paying attention to, ao my life seems to be rather more than i imagine. i prefer Karen Maezen Miller's formulation that what we attend to florishes.<< I like this perspective as well. I guess you're saying here that your life is busy in the sense that you have more demands on your time, energy and attention than you expected. If so, that is probably true for most of us. Then there is being confronted with the unexpected--as in the events in Japan.
>>For my personal psychological work, I have distinctly non verbal wounds and a generally non verbal way of thinking, more geometric than wordy, so I favor more physical and experiential ways of de-conditioning myself over all these 'working with voices' sort of stuff.<< You mean as in the "Big Mind" -thing? I agree. I like your comment on a geometric perspective. I just read the article Edgar posted, and it made me smile and reflect on my own life experience as well as my work today. I hope to add a comment to his post soon that includes that geometry. Something else you mention seems key to me. We each have different ways of "learning" and different forms of "attention". Some are visual learners. Some respond best to audio methods. Others are intuitive or prefer a somatic "hands-on" approach. Learning-by-doing sort-of-thing. I think much of the mis-communication --and suffering, occurs when people assume their style is the right style, and categorically dismiss what works for others as being ineffetive. For some, it is necessary to be able to understand something analytically before they can ever allow it to settle into the heart or one's own "mind". In other words, direct experience is "experienced" as a path that may begin in many different ways. There is often a cultural divide as well, in my experience. Some cultures value routine, regulation, even rigidity when it comes to standards and protocols. The approach to zen, sitting or spiritual awareness may be profoundly different from another who has a vastly different background and lifestyle. Perhaps this is why I've never been "religious", as it always seemed exclusive rather than inclusive to me. I think one of the reasons I asked you this in the beginning is because you have both Christian and zen practices, yet from what I read in your posts--you seem very balanced and down-to-earth, as well as being non-judgemental. Yet I always get the sense that you have established what works for you, and would not be easily moved to adopt a new style of practice. >.>While I was victimized as a child, I also grew up as an educated, intelligent white apparently straight male who was super good at programming while computers were becoming ubiquitous, so I think the sort of totalizing powerlessness that Cheryl's technique is aimed at was not my lot. I have had a bias against believing that I deserve kindness and respect, but I have no doubt that I can please people by doing stuff they can't do with math or computers.>> I didn't know this was her perspective. But I can understand why that would not be useful to you. As for deserving kindness and respect-- I think I know what you mean by that in a zen sense, but it may also be partly a gender thing. I--of course, can say that I believe you inspire both. But it doesn't matter what I think or feel. Except that I do wish you joy. >>I haven't had much depression, at least since getting out of adolescence, or desire for suicide, so I do not have much comment about the uses of mindfulness for those struggles. My own therapy was rather conventional trauma recovery therapy, based on shoring up daily routines, learning that I am safe basically, that it is ok to feel actual feelings, and that the body/mind is a fairly reasonable system (rather than rational). I regard it as being good prep work for Zen.<< Well, I believe that both have complex interactions of biology, psycho-social -- and more components. There are mindful practices that can be a part of treatment for depression--such as gratitude and mindful joy practices. I can better explain that perspective in a comment I have on Edgar and Ed's recent posts. Thanks again for your time responding. Be well. :) Kristy --- In [email protected], "Healthyplay1" <healthyplay1@...> wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > Some very interesting ideas in your comments. My time is short now, and I'd > rather give you a mindful response. So, I will do so later. > > Thanks again for the reply. Have a good day.. k > > > --- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane <chris@> wrote: > > > > My only contact with Cheryl Huber has been to read about half of a book she > > wrote, called something like 'There is nothing wrong with you.' it was not > > especially my style, and it is still sitting on my 'being read' shelf of > > books. > > > > I have not heard of a Mountain View Zen Center, but I will look into it. I > > have been sitting with Angie Boissivin's San Jose sangha when I am with a > > group. Their sesshin was quite pleasant. > > > > As far as attention and life, I find my constant challenge comes from > > finding more parts of my life that I have trouble paying attention to, ao > > my life seems to be rather more than i imagine. i prefer Karen Maezen > > Miller's formulation that what we attend to florishes. > > > > For my personal psychological work, I have distinctly non verbal wounds and > > a generally non verbal way of thinking, more geometric than wordy, so I > > favor more physical and experiential ways of de-conditioning myself over > > all these 'working with voices' sort of stuff. > > > > While I was victimized as a child, I also grew up as an educated, > > intelligent white apparently straight male who was super good at > > programming while computers were becoming ubiquitous, so I think the sort > > of totalizing powerlessness that Cheryl's technique is aimed at was not my > > lot. I have had a bias against believing that I deserve kindness and > > respect, but I have no doubt that I can please people by doing stuff they > > can't do with math or computers. > > > > I haven't had much depression, at least since getting out of adolescence, > > or desire for suicide, so I do not have much comment about the uses of > > mindfulness for those struggles. My own therapy was rather conventional > > trauma recovery therapy, based on shoring up daily routines, learning that > > I am safe basically, that it is ok to feel actual feelings, and that the > > body/mind is a fairly reasonable system (rather than rational). I regard it > > as being good prep work for Zen. > > > > Thanks, > > Chris Austin-Lane > > Sent from a cell phone > > > > On Mar 8, 2011, at 10:03, "Healthyplay1" <healthyplay1@> wrote: > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > I haven't followed the postings recently, but as I was looking over the > > > thread topics, I saw your comment here, and have a quick question.. > > > > > > Being in No. Cal, have you attended any classes /retreats or such with > > > Cheryl Hubert? I think her center is near Murphys-- ( Mountain View Zen > > > Center), but she has been at Spirit Rock and other centers in the Santa > > > Cruz area. > > > > > > As I honor much of your practice style, I'm curious--in light of your > > > statements here-- how you would respond to her belief that your life is > > > what you give your attention to, and how to work constructively and > > > compassionately with what Cheri calls "the negative voices in the head". > > > > > > I-- of course, do believe in actively engaging in compassionate service > > > and actions. For me, zen is a means--not an end. But I will be teaching > > > with her & others next fall, on how mindful practices influence > > > depression and suicide. > > > > > > Just interested in your thoughts. > > > > > > Thanks...k > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > >> > > >> On Tuesday, March 8, 2011, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Chris, > > >>> > > >>> My apologys if I've got my wires crossed. I thought your original post > > >>> was referring to compassion when you said that, "sit, allow your > > >>> body/mind to stop twisting itself up, see that we are all one, all > > >>> changing, and fundamentally ok, and allow that belief to soak into you > > >>> body so that your body/mind components are confident and able to see > > >>> when action is appropriate", then perhaps that is more acceptable. > > >> > > >> That paragraph was in contrast to the one above it, a straw man > > >> statement "just get enlightened and all the worlds problems > > >> disappear." > > >> > > >> That paragraphis my attempt at the marketing of no-marketing. > > >>> > > >>> And also: > > >>> > > >>>> Many Zen groups do sponsor outward facing activity; many more > > >>>> individuals who undertake training also perform actions of benefit to > > >>>> others; >however the zen model is to make no more fuss about that than > > >>>> a hand adjusting the pillow for the head; of course that's what the > > >>>> hand does, no big >deal. > > >>> > > >>> I took the above as talking about compassionate 'action' and my point > > >>> was referring to how that action was performed - by thought or > > >>> 'thoughtless' intuition. The point about Red Cross parcels being sent > > >>> to orphans wasn't really beingà addressed to what you said, but rather > > >>> that compassion arises in every action of the awakened rather than just > > >>> the obvious ones (which anyone can do - even cynically). > > >> > > >> Yes, that paragraph was responding to ED's saying that his local zen > > >> center visits the imprisoned. > > >> > > >> As for how the action is performed, action is action, how can it be > > >> performed by thought? > > >> > > >> I rather find this dogged desire to split things into thought filled > > >> vs intuitive to be tedious. People do what they can. Certainly > > >> blindness to my own beliefs and my own nature makes it easier to piss > > >> off my neighbors when I thought i was being helpful, but to postpone > > >> responding to the people around you until you climb some mountain of > > >> enlightenment seems like another form of placing an idea above your > > >> actual life. Acting as we can as we are, with that little openness to > > >> the chance that we may be missing something quite important, is > > >> something we can do right now. > > >> > > >> Note: by my own nature, I do not mean no-self, I mean the stuff that > > >> all my friends and acquaintances well know about me which I do not > > >> like to see at all. > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> > > >> --Chris > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >>> Mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> From: Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> > > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> Sent: Tue, 8 March, 2011 23:17:13 > > >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Two Potent Quotes > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> It is just clear. My original post wasn't about sending food to the > > >>> hungry orphans, I am not sure where you got that; or compassion either. > > >>> --Chris > > >>> > > >>> On Mar 8, 2011 3:38 AM, "mike brown" <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Chris, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> At the time, in the moment, it is clear. > > >>> > > >>> Do you mean it is consciously clear (as in an active judgement) orà > > >>> intuitively clear, without thought? For me, I still see compassion > > >>> arising from any > > >>> action performed in the awakened 'state'- sending Red Cross parcels to > > >>> children in Eithiopia is beside the point. > > >>> > > >>> Mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> From: Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> > > >>> > > >>> To: Zen_Forum@: Tue, 8 March, 2011 13:54:13 > > >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Two Potent Quotes > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> At the time, in the moment, it is clear. I did not mean something which > > >>> would be labelled approp... > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or > > >>> are reading! Talk about it tod... > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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