JM, I may have been wrong in saying feelings are part of emotions. They belong to the same category, if said loosely. >From what you say, your teacher said something from his realization that you >should drop your dualistic arguments (or something like that) in favor of your >'true mind' (benxin). It makes sense, in contrast with your statement that you should drop you 'mind' in favor of your 'heart'. 'Yishi' can also mean 'consciourness'. I assume you are not asking me to drop my 'consciousness', or I would cease to exist. Anthony
--- On Mon, 14/3/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Five Poisons II To: [email protected] Date: Monday, 14 March, 2011, 12:20 PM Dear Anthony, I understand your concern. Let me explain. I am not saying my definition is the only definition. I said, let me try to "redefine" the two terms we use in our school. They are so defined for the ease of teaching. Since no words are absolute, so are our definition. BTW, in my dictionary, feeling is not emotion. Emotion is emotion. Feeling is the sensing of our wellness only. Feeling or 『覺』， could also be translated into awareness or sense. Sorry if I have confused the forum or you or anyone. To be exact, since you can read Chinese, let me give you the original Chinese. Perhaps you can help me to translate it. My teacher say, we need to drop our 『意識』 or 『意識心』。 and let our 『本心』 rise. Thank you. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 3/13/2011 3:25 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Excuse me for butting in after some pause. I agree with you that 'chi' is not an illusion. The routes of chi flowing in the human body can be tracked by modern science, using electro-resistance method. Chi can also be felt by long practicing. It cannot 'take care of itself'. On the other hand, I find it hard to agree with your statement that 'mind' is the false self, while 'heart', including feelings, sensations and awareness, is the true self. Feelings etc are part of the emotions, which are sometimes harmful. They are not scientifically associated with the heart. The misunderstanding dates back to Kumarajiwa more than a thousand years ago. When he translated 'citta', he found no better word in Chinese than the the character 'xin', for heart. In much later dates, the English language took 'mind' to represent 'citta'. So don't be mistaken, both 'heart' (except for the physical organ) and 'mind' are the same. I wonder how year teacher say in reference to the word 'mind'. Anthony --- On Mon, 14/3/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Subject: [Zen] Five Poisons II To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Date: Monday, 14 March, 2011, 12:00 AM Good morning Mark, I thank you for response. Now we have something to talk about. Otherwise, it can be boring just talking to myself. Since Harvey Sensei did say in one of his posts that sometimes our words could be like blades, I shall try to be a little more blunt, I hope you don't mind. Because we are getting into the nitty gritty area, where we are discussing the invisible while any delicate tiny imbalance will throw us off course by a mile. "Hair width difference is like heaven and earth apart..." XinXinMing... All I am doing is to trying to stir up some wave, (blade:wake up), because all words are illusory in the first place, including mine. Any agreement or disagreement is caused by our attachment to a particular way of living or believe or practice. Some are easier to communicate because the words are familiar. Some are difficult because the experiences are different. Chan is in essence a spiritual practice. Therefore instead of agree or disagree, just practice with our heart open and cultivate our awareness to be connected with everything. As you said, we don't do enough. But not enough in which direction? :-) True as you stated, in the practice, words or vibration of our conscious mind, hinders our connection to the present moment. Before we dig a little deeper into "present moment", l need to redefine two words, which are, IMO, critical in communicating our practice and witnesses. "Mind" means all mental work, all logic, all dharma, all thinking, all analytic process. We also call this "false self", or consciousness. "Heart" means feelings, sensations, awareness, spirit, soul, or "true self". Though they serve two different function but they affect each other. Indeed as you say, the key in Chan is to focus on, in, at, with the present moment. If we dig a little deeper, checking with the sutra, where Buddha has recorded his journey, we may need to investigate "to what" and "with what"? Do we focus on the "form", or the "formless"? Based on the sutra, it is the formlessness we need to focus on. Then what is that? Our teaching and witness explains that it is the chi, the energy, the spirit, the connection to the wisdom of the moment with our "heart" without any tiny, microscopic vibration from our "mind". In short, focus on the heart of the universe and not its manifestations. After 2,500 years, there are too many versions of Buddha's teaching. Therefore in our school, we use primarily the Heart Sutra and the Diamond Sutra. Both Buddhist in terminology. Words I used, such as "realm, Bodhisatva" are just words. These are however actually spiritual state we can witness. Eileen called them "deeper", we call them "higher", they are still words or emptiness. Yet we have witnessed that all descriptions in the sutra can be experienced and witnessed. The key is in the practice. I often wish that we have other words to use, which are more familiar with others. Yet at the end, it is still our mind making the final judgment. This is the sadness of our delusional mind. A side note, Order of Chan historically is also called the Order of Buddha Heart. Transmission is heart to heart transmission and not a transmission of words or teaching or understanding. (No different from the water crystal experiment done by Dr. Emoto.) When we are in sync, we are able to accept all manifestations as is and clearly "connecting to" the "cause/wisdom/truth/dharma" of that particular moment. Again, thank you Mark for your feedback. Now I am granted with this opportunity to share. I am grateful. JMJM Head Teacher Order Of Chan Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 3/12/2011 8:39 AM, Mark Perew wrote: JMJM - I shall be honest that I find no value in your posts about Chan. I'm with Bill in my approach and view of zen. All the schools and theories just get in the way of sitting and experiencing what is. The more explanations we try to provide, the more we separate ourselves from just being fully present. Does it really matter if there are 10 levels or 2 or a million? Maybe the idea that levels exist is just more illusion. And, yes, I suspect that karma and chi are only illusions. My suspicion is that even if karma and chi were real, that even looking at them is counterproductive. If I focus on being fully present in the here and now, accepting the deep interconnectedness of all things, and acting with compassion to all beings then my chi and karma would take care of themselves. Of course, since chi and karma are just illusions I can skip them entirely and just move on to being fully present in the here and now, accepting the deep interconnectedness of all things, and acting with compassion. Win! What I would be delighted to read from everyone is your personal experiences with zen. What happens for you when you sit, walk, interact in a mindful way? What brings you, personally, directly, immediately closer to being fully present in the here and now? We don't do enough of that. 2011/3/12 Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Hello Maria and Eileen, Thank you for your feedback. Because these terminology is not in the "usual" zen dictionary. I needed to know whether I should continue on this path, though Chan uses primarily Tao in practice and Buddhism in describing spirituality. Buddha taught for 49 years. And his teachings probably contains the most material describing various states of spirituality. I sense probably it is time to talk a little about spirituality. If you like, I will post more. Thank you for your time, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 3/12/2011 1:06 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: JMJM; I learnt from the recent discussion you had with ED. This other kind of posting doesn't appeal much to me as it sounds a kind of catethism and this is why I don't usually answer to it. However, It's nice of you to send it as it's always refreshing to read you. Thank you for the effort and time spent on them Mayka --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Subject: [Zen Living] Five Poisons II To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 23:12 Dear All, Since my last post, there was not any response. I assumed that my last post was not clear or foreign in terminology. Please allow me to elaborate. There are ten realms according to Buddhism. The Human realm is the fifth from the top. The Bodhisatva realm is the second only to Buddha. Bodhisatva realm is pure heart, which is pure compassion, pure wisdom and pure joy and above all karma. Human realm is thinking in human terms, act in human ways with some self-interest and trapped in forms. When our spirit is in the Bodhisatva realm, our heart is filled with wisdom, compassion and joy. We live based on the wisdom of the moment with harmonious intentions, because in this realm, our heart is one with the other without separation. As soon as we begin to think, to analyze, to judge, our spirit drops right back down to human realm, we think, act with limited human knowledge/experience and self interest. We are then trapped in form. Sutra labels this state of being as reincarnation, for it is an endless chase of relativity. When our spirit is in the realm of Bodhisatva, we are not affect by all the forms. We are able to penetrate to the veil of self defense. We are able to be connected to the invisible wisdom of the moment to harmonize the situation. Buddhist say to resolve all karma. This is way I was taught, practice and witness the way to rid of the Five Poisons. Just for your reference. Thank you for your attention. JMJM Head Teacher Order of Chan -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
