Anthony, You keep returning time after time to this theme. It seems self-destructive to me and I don't advocate what I'm about to say, but I say it only to respond to you.
There have been many intstances of people who have conquered their fear of pain and death. The first that comes to mind is Jesus, but there have been many others much less well-known or even known at all. Anyone that has chosen put his/her life at risk or face certain death could be said to have done this. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > When can we break the illusion of self so that we don't fear disintegration > of our bodies? >  > However the cause and effect of leaping into an abyss and death still exists, > whether we are alive or dead. >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, 13 January 2012, 17:28 > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > friends & family react? > > >  > Anthony, > > When we 'break the illusion of self' we break all illusions. We see through > all dualistic concepts. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > à> > Jumping into an abyss is a classical zen allegory. It is a good one for the > > purpose of breaking illusion of the self. However, it is not for negating > > cause-and-effect. In the physical world, you don't jump into an abyss, > > because you don't want your body to disintegrate. In other words, there is > > an effect to fear. So it is not an illusion. > > à> > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2012, 12:51 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > friends & family react? > > > > > > à> > Anthony, > > > > Zen stories, perhaps even more than most, are symbolic - many are > > allegories and should not be taken literally. I say zen stories use this > > device more than most because much of what zen is about cannot be totally > > expressed with words - espcially written words. Face-to-face dialog is > > better, but as you know some zen masters tried to express and communicate > > their experience of Buddha Nature without words - with just sounds or even > > just actions. At least that's my opinion. > > > > The 'Jumping into the Abyss' phrase/allegory was taken from what you've > > called the physical world. When we stand at the edge of an abyss and > > contemplate jumping we will probably be terrified. It would take an act of > > either extreme desperation or faith to jump. > > > > That is the same kind of desparation or faith that is needed to sever all > > attachements to the illusion of 'self' and rationality and throw yourself > > into the 'abyss' - Buddha Nature. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > Ãâà> > > Quote:Ãâàin zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss' > > > Ãâà> > > Since the physical world is part of the reality, can you do that > > > physically? > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:19 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > Siska, > > > > > > Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. > > > > > > The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating mind > > > to 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is > > > fundamentally chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic > > > experience (Just THIS!) into pieces, and then to categorize and even > > > directly associating some pieces with others by assigning a dependent > > > cause-and-effect relationship to these pairs or sets of pieces. The > > > establishment of these cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit > > > your needs at the time. They are not absolute, objective or real. They > > > are relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they are > > > dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion of > > > cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you a certain > > > sense of control of life. > > > > > > The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect which > > > is usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. > > > > > > The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen stories > > > as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft flagpole'. > > > These are teachings telling you that you must let go of your attachments > > > (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come out of your > > > fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory security blanket and throw > > > yourself completly into the stark unknown and unknowable. > > > > > > There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. > > > > Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than > > > > you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that > > > > karma exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but > > > > Yours (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists independently > > > > of you. You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' > > > > - outside of and/or separate from you. > > > > > > > > I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their > > > > supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate > > > > from you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They > > > > are illusory. > > > > > > > > If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, > > > > there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is > > > > not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed > > > > or described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > > > > > > > This is my experience...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other > > > > > 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you > > > > > deny karma, does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting > > > > > or burning, does not have any effects? You may say you rely on law to > > > > > take care of it. But that is part of karma, at the human level. > > > > > Nevertheless, it is more realistic than reliance on God. if all are > > > > > illusory, killing and looting will be out of control. In that case, > > > > > believing in God is better than believing in nothing. > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > How are they different concepts? > > > > > > > > > > Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both > > > > > exist as a concept in your mind. > > > > > > > > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good > > > > > deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of > > > > > [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. > > > > > Likewise attributng the enforcement of actions/reactions or > > > > > cause/effect to an outside agency such as karma or God is also just > > > > > packaging. > > > > > > > > > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think > > > > > > that definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept > > > > > > of sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is > > > > > > > action and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha > > > > > > > nature). > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to > > > > > > > Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis > > > > > > > > not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from > > > > > > > > people surrounding you when you said you were interested in > > > > > > > > Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get a > > > > > > > > funnier response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile to > > > > > > > > Buddhism, you find different views on it. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to > > > > > > > > karma. The difference between the two is the former insists > > > > > > > > that karma is your own business, nobody else can help you > > > > > > > > change it. However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who > > > > > > > > respond to your requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a > > > > > > > > zen forum, and there are a view I term chaotic zen, which > > > > > > > > denies anything on karma, or any laws or rules. They say > > > > > > > > everything is in chaos. On the other hand, you will also hear > > > > > > > > all kinds of Buddhist views here. I hope you have fun here. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, > > > > > > > > just recently starting reading up on it the past several > > > > > > > > months, although technically I've been exposed to it for many > > > > > > > > years through a variety of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite > > > > > > > > was Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. Don't know why, but the > > > > > > > > scenes with the shoalin temple and buddhist monks were always > > > > > > > > my favorite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except > > > > > > > > for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen > > > > > > > > the books and notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, > > > > > > > > it has not been encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look > > > > > > > > or a groan when they see it that suggests that they are not > > > > > > > > happy about it. They are catholics. I'm an atheist (which > > > > > > > > they've known for years). When I finally told my sister that > > > > > > > > I'd like to visit a temple in town, she got disqusted and said > > > > > > > > "why? You'll never go with me to my church, but you'll go to a > > > > > > > > buddhist church?" I didn't know what to say, so I told her the > > > > > > > > truth, that I didn't feel anything for catholicism anymore, and > > > > > > > > that it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She wasn't > > > > > > > > pleased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at > > > > > > > > work. I get along great with both of them, known them for > > > > > > > > several years. My co-worker mentioned she and her husband were > > > > > > > > atheists, so I told her I was too. We both got a kick out of it > > > > > > > > realizing that we never knew that about each other. Then I > > > > > > > > mentioned to her that I had been reading up on buddhism lately, > > > > > > > > and she gave the same kind of groan I've been hearing from my > > > > > > > > family. My boss just sort of gave a look of shock and > > > > > > > > disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so before > > > > > > > > that, I was discussing various books with another boss that we > > > > > > > > like to read, and I mentioned one I'd been reading called the > > > > > > > > Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it was about so I told him, and > > > > > > > > when I mentioned it has a buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny > > > > > > > > look. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured > > > > > > > > buddhism to be one of the most revered and highly respected > > > > > > > > forms of philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I > > > > > > > > felt that way. When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to > > > > > > > > ask a question pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad replies > > > > > > > > over a single question, and if any of you have ever been on > > > > > > > > there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in that section. So > > > > > > > > it really threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy reactions > > > > > > > > from people I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you > > > > > > > > knew when you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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