I have thought about it and to be honest I can not say as I know anything that is not spiritual.
A story to illustrate; My stepfather was a mechanic so I was not unused to the presence of mechanical tools. One day at a friends house I saw some tools on the floor in their lounge room. I picked up a spanner and found myself acutely aware of it's weight. It's weight was not exagerated only that I was very aware of a precise sense of it's weight. In considering this weight I became aware of the substance of the spanner, the metal. It was as though it spoke to me announcing it's existence to my mind. I remember that as a child the world seemed very much to be a living thing to me. As a young man there came a time that I was barely aware of life existing in myself let alone anywhere else. Remembering the sense of life I had known throughout my childhood I could not help but feel concerned with my state. Yesterday, water, waves fell from the sky! --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@...> wrote: > > It's late here I'm going to bed. > Perhaps in the morning I will have a better answer for you right now the best > I can do is ask if you know anything of allchemy? > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > Rewrisk, > > > > That's an interesting statement. > > > > Could you explain what there is about your zen practice that you consider > > spiritual? > > > > I don't consider any part of zen practice as spritual at all. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > > > Absolutely. > > > There is no area of my spiritual life that is not firmly grounded in > > > reality. > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Do you also take a materialistic view? > > > >  > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: rewrisk <rewrisk@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Monday, 23 January 2012, 18:47 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > "You tracked it correctly. Explained incorrectly." > > > > Pardon? > > > > I'll stay with my original question and the implied assertion that > > > > reality is in fact material reality. > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Rewrisk, > > > > > à> > > > > You tracked it correctly. Explained incorrectly. I referred to Mike's > > > > > contradiction against his usual way, by saying that nothing exists > > > > > except atoms and space. I did not state my view. Nevertheless, I give > > > > > you a thesis here. For instance, Bill insists nothing at all exists > > > > > in this world (maybe only chaos and Buddha nature exist).What is your > > > > > comment? > > > > > à> > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: rewrisk <rewrisk@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Monday, 23 January 2012, 18:04 > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > > I am sorry was this not your post. > > > > > I am surprised you take that materialistic view. So all of your > > > > > vipassana with ensuing red, brown, crimson lights are just > > > > > hallucinations. > > > > > > > > > > I thought I had tracked it correctly. > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > You say, 'So Anthony do you really believe that you know something > > > > > > that does not exist? > > > > > > I would like to see such a thing?' > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > I never said that. > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: rewrisk <rewrisk@> > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 23 January 2012, 11:59 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > So Anthony do you really believe that you know something that does > > > > > > not exist? > > > > > > I would like to see such a thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Only just now you said atoms and empty space, and the rest don't. > > > > > > > That is a materialistic view, which have existed (besides atoms > > > > > > > and space) thousands of years. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012, 0:13 > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Hi Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is that labeling phenonema and things is all just > > > > > > > opinion. Saying I am, or am not, a Buddhist (for example) is to > > > > > > > miss the point of Zen. Same with labeling phenonema as 'cause and > > > > > > > effect' or 'freewill'. These things simply don't exist in the > > > > > > > universe. We can claim they exist in the sense that counting > > > > > > > exists, yet the number 4 doesn't. Same with unicorns and > > > > > > > Buddhists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 15/1/12, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > >did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > > > > >Date: Sunday, 15 January, 2012, 8:53 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > >Mike, > > > > > > > >ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > >I am surprised you take that materialistic view. So all of your > > > > > > > >vipassana with ensuing red, brown, crimson lights are just > > > > > > > >hallucinations. > > > > > > > >ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > >Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > > > > > >From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@> > > > > > > > >To: [email protected] > > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012, 21:29 > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > >did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > >Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàNothing exists except atoms and empty space; > > > > > > > >everything else is just opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ' > > > > ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ > > > > ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ' > > > > > ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà- Democritus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- On Sat, 14/1/12, siska_cen@ <siska_cen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>From: siska_cen@ <siska_cen@> > > > > > > > >>Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > >>did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > >>To: [email protected] > > > > > > > >>Date: Saturday, 14 January, 2012, 23:17 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > >>Hi Bill,It took a while for me to figure this :-) I'm rather > > > > > > > >>slow, perhaps lately, if not always.The idea that cause and > > > > > > > >>effect is illusory is quite new to me. I remember Anthony > > > > > > > >>mentioning it before, but didn't really sink in. I thought the > > > > > > > >>concept of cause and effect is something that is parallel to > > > > > > > >>dependent origination, which is to say that everything is > > > > > > > >>simultaneously affecting many other things in such complicated > > > > > > > >>manner that our mind cannot really grasp it. Even if it can, it > > > > > > > >>is actually of no use. As you said, the mind needs it to 'feel' > > > > > > > >>secure.I never thought it as illusory though. Whatever we think > > > > > > > >>about it IS illusory.Siska > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>________________________________ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > >>Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > > >>Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:19:25 -0000 > > > > > > > >>To: <[email protected]> > > > > > > > >>ReplyTo: [email protected] > > > > > > > >>Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > >>did your friends family react?ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > >>Siska,Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory.The > > > > > > > >>belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating > > > > > > > >>mind to 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience > > > > > > > >>which is fundamentally chaotic. It is a process of breaking up > > > > > > > >>wholistic experience (Just THIS!) into pieces, and then to > > > > > > > >>categorize and even directly associating some pieces with > > > > > > > >>others by assigning a dependent cause-and-effect relationship > > > > > > > >>to these pairs or sets of pieces. The establishment of these > > > > > > > >>cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit your needs at > > > > > > > >>the time. They are not absolute, objective or real. They are > > > > > > > >>relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they are > > > > > > > >>dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The > > > > > > > >>illusion of cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable > > > > > > > >>and gives you a certain sense of control of life.The concept of > > > > > > > >>karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect which is > > > > > > > >>usually thought of as purely a physical > > > > > > > relationship.The letting go of this illusion is sometimes > > > > > > > referred to in zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss', or > > > > > > > 'taking a step off the 100-ft flagpole'. These are teachings > > > > > > > telling you that you must let go of your attachments (espcially > > > > > > > to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come out of your > > > > > > > fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory security blanket > > > > > > > and throw yourself completly into the stark unknown and > > > > > > > unknowable.There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect > > > > > > > there. Just THIS!...Bill! --- In [email protected], > > > > > > > siska_cen@ wrote:>> Hi Bill,> > > The killing is not the cause > > > > > > > and the dieing the effect.> Would you then say that cause and > > > > > > > effect is illusory?> > Siska> -----Original Message-----> From: > > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@>> Sender: [email protected]> Date: > > > > > > > Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > To: <[email protected]>> > > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you > > > > > > > began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > did your friends & family react?> > Anthony,> > When I said > > > > > > > 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than you'. > > > > > > > When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that > > > > > > > karma exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will > > > > > > > but Yours (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists > > > > > > > independently of you. You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are > > > > > > > 'outside agencies' - outside of and/or separate from you.> > I am > > > > > > > saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their > > > > > > > supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT > > > > > > > separate from you. That are created by you - by your > > > > > > > discriminating mind. They are illusory.> > If you kill, there is > > > > > > > killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, there is > > > > > > > looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is > > > > > > > not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action > > > > > > > viewed or described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS!> > > > > > > > > This is my > > > > experience...Bill!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> >> > > > > > > > > Bill,> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > The > > > > > > > difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other > > > > > > > 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if > > > > > > > you deny karma, does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, > > > > > > > looting or burning, does not have any effects? You may say you > > > > > > > rely on law to take care of it. But that is part of karma, at the > > > > > > > human level. Nevertheless, it is more realistic than reliance on > > > > > > > God. if all are illusory, killing and looting will be out of > > > > > > > control. In that case, believing in God is better than believing > > > > > > > in nothing.> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > Anthony> > > > > > ________________________________> > From: > > > > > > > Bill! <BillSmart@>> > To: [email protected] > > Sent: > > > > > > > Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00> > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you > > > > > > > began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & family > > > > > > > react?> > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > Anthony,> > > > How are > > > > > they different concepts?> > > > Both > > > > > > have to do with > > > > > > > action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist as a concept > > > > > > > in your mind.> > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or > > > > > > > cause/effect as good or bad (good deeds lead to reward or sin > > > > > > > leads to punishment; or accumulation of [bad] karma leads to > > > > > > > being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. Likewise attributng > > > > > > > the enforcement of actions/reactions or cause/effect to an > > > > > > > outside agency such as karma or God is also just packaging.> > > > > > > > > > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging.> > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu > > > > > > > <wuasg@> wrote:> > >> > > Bill,> > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > Anthony> > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>> > > To: > > > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began > > > > > learning about buddhism, How did your friends & > > > > > > family react?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony,> > > > > > You definition of karma is well > > > > > > > > > > stated, but why do you not think that definition could not > > > > > > > > > > also be applied to the Christian concept of sin/obedience > > > > > > > > > > and Hell/Heaven?> > > > > > For me it's the same message in > > > > > > > > > > a different envelope.> > > > > > ...Bill!> > > > > > --- In > > > > > > > > > > [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by > > > > > > > > > > God. Karma is action and reaction by yourself through your > > > > > > > > > > own mind (or Buddha nature).> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > > > From: Bill! > > > > > > > > > > <BillSmart@>> > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, > > > > 18:03> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about > > > > buddhism, How did your friends & family react?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' > > > > > > also: if you're 'good' you go to Heaven and if you're > > > > > > > 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill!> > > > > > > > --- In > > > > > > > [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis > > > > > > > not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from people > > > > > > > surrounding you when you said you were interested in Buddhism. > > > > > > > Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get a funnier > > > > > > > response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile to Buddhism, > > > > > > > you find different views on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees > > > > to karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that > > > > karma is your own business, nobody else > > > > > can help you change it. However, in Hinduism, there are powerful > > > > > deities who respond to your requests and assist you. Don't forget we > > > > > are a zen forum, and there are a view I term chaotic > > > > > > zen, which denies anything on karma, or any laws or rules. They say > > > > > > everything is in chaos. On > > > > > > > the other hand, you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views > > > > > > > here. I hope you have fun here. > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony> > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > > > > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@>> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08> > > > > Subject: [Zen] When > > > > you began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & family > > > > > react?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to > > > > > buddhism, just recently starting reading up on it the past several > > > > > months, although technically > > > > > > I've been exposed to it for many years through a variety of tv > > > > > > shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. > > > > > > Don't know why, but the scenes with the shoalin temple > > > > > > > and buddhist monks were always my favorite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except > > > > > > > for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the > > > > > > > books and notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it > > > > > > > has not been encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a > > > > > > > groan when they see it that suggests that they are not happy > > > > > > > about it. They are catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known > > > > > > > for years). When I finally told my sister that I'd like to visit > > > > > > > a temple in town, she got disqusted and said "why? You'll never > > > > > > > go with me to my church, but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I > > > > > > > didn't know what to say, so I told her the truth, that I didn't > > > > > > > feel anything for catholicism anymore, and that it didn't feel > > > > > > > like the right religion for me. She wasn't pleased.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at > > > > > > > work. I get along great with both of them, known them for > > > > > several > > > > > > > years. My co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, > > > > > > > so I told her I was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing > > > > > > > that we never knew that about each other. Then I mentioned to her > > > > > > > that I had been reading up on buddhism lately, and she gave the > > > > > > > same kind of groan I've been hearing from my family. My boss just > > > > > > > sort of gave a look of shock and disbelief, didn't say anything. > > > > > > > I couple of weeks or so before that, I was discussing various > > > > > > > books with another boss that we like to read, and I mentioned one > > > > > > > I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it > > > > > > > was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a buddhist > > > > > > > theme to it, he gave a funny look.> > > > > > > > > > What's > > > > > > > funny about all of this is that I've always figured buddhism to > > > > > > > be one of the most revered and highly respected forms of > > > > > > > philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that > > > > > > > way. When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question > > > > > pertaining > > > > > > > to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a single question, and > > > > > > > if any of you have ever been on there, you know they can be harsh > > > > > > > sometimes in that section. So it really threw me for a loop > > > > > > > seeing all these crazy reactions from people I know.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you > > > > > > > knew when you were first learning about buddhism?> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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