On 8/22/2012 2:51 PM, Roger Thiessen wrote:
My experience of monkey mind corresponds with Kris: it is just the
thinking mind. It is part of our life and experience; we cannot make
it cease.
If I am to continue to offer words on this, I would perhaps clarify to
say cessation requires no action or inaction. It appears to cease
without effort at times, and flows effortlessly at other times (where we
appear to be dealing/not dealing with 'it' to whatever degree). Perhaps
some can force or allow the chatter to silence, perhaps some cannot, but
this is still ordinary mind.
A tame and compliant 'monkey' certainly can appear preferable in many
ways. Such is the nature of appearances. Yet, do we practice to be
monkey trainers?
Some, experience 'samadhi" - via practice or 'grace' - and is such a
state 'monkey mind' ceases to appear separate and troublesome. Also with
kensho, or satori - which I am hesitant to speak of as people associate
different meanings when using such words in discussion (and so again
becomes a matter of appearances). Whether someone considers these
experiences as their doing or not, is monkey mind telling of such
experiences in imagined foresight or hindsight - aka a present
re-imagining and re-telling. A placid and coherent 'monkey' can fool
even itself into such believing such stories are this or that.
With what some describe as 'great satori' this is all obvious. Whatever
arises is only of consequence to the aspects of 'self' that continue to
function 'normally', to the worldly/bodily necessities. Whatever state
appears, is nothing more - or less. Patheless path/gateless gate and
such appear to refer to this. Not for me to say so, or otherwise. I'm
not here to feed or train such monkeys, just playing with them when
they're of a mind to play. Hanuman, is no stranger. ;)
I am learning to observe my monkey mind to see what wisdom it has for
me. The more my mind races, the more I know I must look into what is
there (i.e., dukkah).
'Dukkha' is indeed the only pointer. Mara the only vehicle. All
obstacles imagined, all attainments, likewise.
There are also times when my monkey mind tires me out because it is
obsessing about the past or worrying about the future, so I return to
my breath to stay with the here-and-now.
All such practices, may yield great apparent benefit. Mind training of
many types offers ways to refine the nature of one's experiences - and
so perhaps come to see their nature. 'Ordinary mind' even realized as
'original" or 'Buddha mind' continues to appear, and in it's assumed
function of managing all other appearances, will appear to benefit from
such management. To seek relief, or respite, is also natural. To seek
escape - another matter.
I think Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche called this "touch-and-go": we touch
our dukkah, then return to the present moment for peace (well-being).
Yet, no one has gone anywhere. 'Dukkha' is also only what presents.
Samsara is Nirvana. Only presence, only experiencing. Whatever appears,
simply aspects of this. Ordinary mind as Buddha mind. As Bodhidharma is
reputed to have said: " Mind is Buddha. Do not use Buddha to seek
Buddha." What he meant by 'mind' is perhaps the koan that penetrates all
koans. Each must see for themselves the emptiness of self.
Rinpoche also tells the story of the monkey in the jungle (the
non-minduful individual) who builds a hut (begins mindfulness
training). This is also called "the narrow path," an inward path we
all must take to get to know ourselves from the inside out. The monkey
jumps around the hut from wall to wall and corner to corner. Over
time, he notices that his jumping around is forcing the walls of the
hut further and further out until the walls fall down and the monkey
enters the wide path of the Boddhisatvah, in which s/he sees the
dukkah in all the world and recognizes that suffering is part of life
and the goal is to reduce all suffering: both personal and universal.
This story helps me see the interbeing of suffering and well-being:
one cannot be without the other. So I don't try to stop the monkey
mind, I try to use it to find well-being. Does this make sense?
Yes, it does make sense - which is another way the 'monkey' grasps. What
needs it to "make sense" is also what builds the hut for the monkey, and
what sees its wall blow out...
Realization, a perpetual wilderness.
Surely all that is enough to get the monkeys chattering!
KG
--- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
Kristopher Grey <kris@...> wrote:
>
> Then it is I who owe you thanks.
>
> Without question, all questions appear as invitations to share. Giving
> voice to silence, allowing self-reflection. No answers. No lack.
>
> KG
>
>
> On 8/21/2012 4:40 PM, William Rintala wrote:
> > I cried while I read that. Thank you.
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> > Find what makes your heart singâEUR¦and do it!
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* Kristopher Grey <kris@...>
> > *To:* [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > *Sent:* Tue, August 21, 2012 2:25:13 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Monkey Mind
> >
> > On 8/20/2012 6:18 PM, William Rintala wrote:
> > > So what can you do about Monkey Mind?
> >
> > Cessation.
> >
> > Realize the 'monkey' is asking this, and nothing needs to be done but
> > laugh! (and cry, and eat, and sleep, and attend to whatever arises as
> > it arises - without suffering over some 'monkey mind' that appears/is
> > imagined to be separate from 'Buddha Mind'!)
> >
> > "I" am this idea of 'monkey mind', "I" am also what is monkeying with
> > ideas of 'no-monkey mind'. "I" can do nothing to start or stop it that
> > is not just some form of monkeying around (grasping and rejecting) to
> > reinforce this false sense of (a separate self/ignorance of original
> > nature) an "I" (See - The Three Poisons).
> >
> > Monkey (ordinary) mind is not the problem it appears to be. The
"monkey"
> > is not the deluded one. It already realizes you're the monkey! *L* If
> > monkey mind won't quiet down, simply see what it's going on about. No
> > need to develop Siddhi powers and turn the monkey to stone.
> >
> > Monkeys are easily distracted, always hungry, and naturally fight with
> > other monkeys over all sorts of things. When there is seen to be no
> > monkey here - it can be neither fed nor fought with.
> >
> > Mindfulness, doesn't mind the monkey.
> >
> > KG
> >
> > PS -The first and last line already say too much, the rest is just
> > monkey chatter.
> >
> >
>
