Kristopher, In America there are now 50 shades of grey!
Edgar On Sep 5, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > One say black and white make grey > One says white and black > There's only grey > > KG > > > On 9/5/2012 7:01 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: >> >> Bill! and Merle, >> >> >> I don't understand what Bill! means when he says "MY mind is closed in HIS >> structure." >> >> And my theory of reality is not "a closed structure" because it includes >> everything that exists including illusion. It's Bill!'s theory that is >> closed and dualistic because it excludes illusion as part of reality... Thus >> it imposes boundaries that do not actually exist... >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Sep 5, 2012, at 1:05 AM, Merle Lester wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> i understand what edgar is saying..are you suggesting he is in error?... >>> merle >>> Merle, >>> >>> It's Edgar that has the 'closed mind'. It's been closed in my structure. It >>> might be a very big and seemingly comprehensive structure, but it's a >>> closed boundary nonetheless. >>> >>> Edgar, >>> >>> You stated something very wrong in your reply to KG: >>> >>> "...Everyone certainly models reality differently each in their own >>> internal simulations of it. But in a deeper sense there is no reality >>> except as it is experienced by some observer or other.... This is a complex >>> subject that requires a deep understanding and more time than I have right >>> now... >>> >>> Your errors (IMO) are two: >>> >>> One is ..."that there is no reality except as it is experienced by some >>> observer or other..." What you are talking about here is not reality, it is >>> a PERCEPTION of reality. Pure experience of reality (Buddha Nature) is not >>> dualistic. There is no subject/object pair created. >>> >>> The second is "...This is a complex subject that requires a deep >>> understanding and more time than I have right now..." Direct experience of >>> reality is NOT complex. It is the most simple thing you can do. You just >>> have to quit THINKING about it. It's the THINKING that's complex, not the >>> experience. 'Understanding' is not the key. EXPERIENCING is the key and it >>> doesn't require a lot of time to do. EXPERIENCE is immediate and very, very >>> simple. >>> >>> ...Bill! >>> >>> --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, >>> Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Â some folk have closed minds edgar...you need a sledge hammer to break >>> > through..a stick would not do...merle >>> > >>> > >>> > Â >>> > Kristopher, >>> > >>> > Well yes and no... Maybe... Everyone certainly models reality differently >>> > each in their own internal simulations of it. But in a deeper sense there >>> > is no reality except as it is experienced by some observer or other.... >>> > This is a complex subject that requires a deep understanding and more >>> > time than I have right now... >>> > >>> > >>> > Kristopher is obviously someone who has endured much pain and suffering >>> > in his life and made considerable strides in transcending that by >>> > approaching Zen.... >>> > >>> > However, if I may respectfully say so, I detect a hint of a particular >>> > attitude towards Zen characterized by a sort of Nihilism, hopelessness >>> > and a feeling of meaninglessness in everything which really isn't Zen. >>> > >>> > Please don't take this as a criticism, God knows none of us is perfect, >>> > but my feeling is that since we are all on the path we do each other a >>> > favor by pointing out how we might each do better and that we should all >>> > be free and open in exchanging and receiving such insights. >>> > >>> > Merle especially seems open to this. She's a great example for us all in >>> > that respect and we should all take her lead on this.. >>> > >>> > >>> > Zen is not meaningless, hopeless, or Nihilistic. On the contrary by >>> > directly realizing and experiencing the ultimate absolute reality of all >>> > things really really here right now in the present moment it can be said >>> > to reveal the ultimate MEANINGFULNESS of things, and thus of the seeker... >>> > >>> > Edgar >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sep 4, 2012, at 10:26 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: >>> > >>> > Â >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >OK. Then there is no Bill! standing apart from Buddha nature. Not the >>> > >Bill! who posts here, and not the Bill! who lives as a logical construct >>> > >in your head. If you think these Bill!s are the same, you will logically >>> > >think Bill! to be illogical. You will see what you think is Bill!'s >>> > >error. If you think them apart, you make the same error for him. >>> > > >>> > >It's only easy to be right about the image you have of him, no >>> > other can be known. There is no difference. >>> > > >>> > >Same goes for 'Zen' >>> > > >>> > >KG >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >On 9/4/2012 8:56 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: >>> > > >>> > >Â >>> > >>Bill!, >>> > >> >>> > >>Bill! claims logic is NOT Zen... >>> > >> >>> > >>Bill! says he uses logic in his daily life... >>> > >> >>> > >>Therefore Bill must believe he CANNOT have Zen in his >>> > daily life... >>> > >> >>> > >>This is a serious error... >>> > >> >>> > >>Zen is 24/7 whether one is using logic or sitting >>> > mindlessly. >>> > >> >>> > >>It is a fundamental error to believe only mindless sitting >>> > is Zen. That's mistaking a particular meditative state for >>> > Zen. >>> > >> >>> > >>There is no part of reality that is not Buddha Nature. >>> > Illusion is part of reality and thus is a manifestation of >>> > Buddha Nature. >>> > >> >>> > >>Realization is seeing the illusion that is part of reality >>> > as illusion rather than the fake reality it pretends to >>> > be.... >>> > >> >>> > >>When Bill! understands that logic is part of reality and >>> > thus like everything else is a form manifesting Buddha >>> > Nature rather than something contrary to and apart from >>> > Buddha Nature, then and only then will Bill! allow himself >>> > to completely realize Zen in his daily life as well as >>> > when he is sitting mindlessly... >>> > >> >>> > >>This is the crux of Bill!'s misunderstanding.... At the >>> > most fundamental level he dualistically divides reality >>> > into illusion and Buddha nature without realizing that >>> > even illusion is a manifestation of Buddha Nature because >>> > there is nothing that is not Buddha Nature... The world of >>> > forms does NOT stand apart from Buddha Nature. The world >>> > of forms is a direct manifestation OF Buddha Nature. >>> > >> >>> > >>Zen does not try to dismiss the world of forms; Zen is >>> > seeing the Buddha Nature that is manifested in the world >>> > of forms... It is seeing the world of forms AS Buddha >>> > Nature... >>> > >> >>> > >>Only when this becomes clear can realization occur.... >>> > >> >>> > >>Edgar >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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