Edgar, America might have 50 shades of grey, but the Republican Convention was all white...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Kristopher, > > In America there are now 50 shades of grey! > > Edgar > > > > On Sep 5, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > > > One say black and white make grey > > One says white and black > > There's only grey > > > > KG > > > > > > On 9/5/2012 7:01 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >> > >> Bill! and Merle, > >> > >> > >> I don't understand what Bill! means when he says "MY mind is closed in HIS > >> structure." > >> > >> And my theory of reality is not "a closed structure" because it includes > >> everything that exists including illusion. It's Bill!'s theory that is > >> closed and dualistic because it excludes illusion as part of reality... > >> Thus it imposes boundaries that do not actually exist... > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sep 5, 2012, at 1:05 AM, Merle Lester wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> i understand what edgar is saying..are you suggesting he is in error?... > >>> merle > >>> Merle, > >>> > >>> It's Edgar that has the 'closed mind'. It's been closed in my structure. > >>> It might be a very big and seemingly comprehensive structure, but it's a > >>> closed boundary nonetheless. > >>> > >>> Edgar, > >>> > >>> You stated something very wrong in your reply to KG: > >>> > >>> "...Everyone certainly models reality differently each in their own > >>> internal simulations of it. But in a deeper sense there is no reality > >>> except as it is experienced by some observer or other.... This is a > >>> complex subject that requires a deep understanding and more time than I > >>> have right now... > >>> > >>> Your errors (IMO) are two: > >>> > >>> One is ..."that there is no reality except as it is experienced by some > >>> observer or other..." What you are talking about here is not reality, it > >>> is a PERCEPTION of reality. Pure experience of reality (Buddha Nature) is > >>> not dualistic. There is no subject/object pair created. > >>> > >>> The second is "...This is a complex subject that requires a deep > >>> understanding and more time than I have right now..." Direct experience > >>> of reality is NOT complex. It is the most simple thing you can do. You > >>> just have to quit THINKING about it. It's the THINKING that's complex, > >>> not the experience. 'Understanding' is not the key. EXPERIENCING is the > >>> key and it doesn't require a lot of time to do. EXPERIENCE is immediate > >>> and very, very simple. > >>> > >>> ...Bill! > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > >>> Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Â some folk have closed minds edgar...you need a sledge hammer to > >>> > break through..a stick would not do...merle > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Â > >>> > Kristopher, > >>> > > >>> > Well yes and no... Maybe... Everyone certainly models reality > >>> > differently each in their own internal simulations of it. But in a > >>> > deeper sense there is no reality except as it is experienced by some > >>> > observer or other.... This is a complex subject that requires a deep > >>> > understanding and more time than I have right now... > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Kristopher is obviously someone who has endured much pain and suffering > >>> > in his life and made considerable strides in transcending that by > >>> > approaching Zen.... > >>> > > >>> > However, if I may respectfully say so, I detect a hint of a particular > >>> > attitude towards Zen characterized by a sort of Nihilism, hopelessness > >>> > and a feeling of meaninglessness in everything which really isn't Zen. > >>> > > >>> > Please don't take this as a criticism, God knows none of us is perfect, > >>> > but my feeling is that since we are all on the path we do each other a > >>> > favor by pointing out how we might each do better and that we should > >>> > all be free and open in exchanging and receiving such insights. > >>> > > >>> > Merle especially seems open to this. She's a great example for us all > >>> > in that respect and we should all take her lead on this.. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Zen is not meaningless, hopeless, or Nihilistic. On the contrary by > >>> > directly realizing and experiencing the ultimate absolute reality of > >>> > all things really really here right now in the present moment it can be > >>> > said to reveal the ultimate MEANINGFULNESS of things, and thus of the > >>> > seeker... > >>> > > >>> > Edgar > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Sep 4, 2012, at 10:26 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > >>> > > >>> > Â > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > >OK. Then there is no Bill! standing apart from Buddha nature. Not the > >>> > >Bill! who posts here, and not the Bill! who lives as a logical > >>> > >construct in your head. If you think these Bill!s are the same, you > >>> > >will logically think Bill! to be illogical. You will see what you > >>> > >think is Bill!'s error. If you think them apart, you make the same > >>> > >error for him. > >>> > > > >>> > >It's only easy to be right about the image you have of him, no > >>> > other can be known. There is no difference. > >>> > > > >>> > >Same goes for 'Zen' > >>> > > > >>> > >KG > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > >On 9/4/2012 8:56 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > >Â > >>> > >>Bill!, > >>> > >> > >>> > >>Bill! claims logic is NOT Zen... > >>> > >> > >>> > >>Bill! says he uses logic in his daily life... > >>> > >> > >>> > >>Therefore Bill must believe he CANNOT have Zen in his > >>> > daily life... > >>> > >> > >>> > >>This is a serious error... > >>> > >> > >>> > >>Zen is 24/7 whether one is using logic or sitting > >>> > mindlessly. > >>> > >> > >>> > >>It is a fundamental error to believe only mindless sitting > >>> > is Zen. That's mistaking a particular meditative state for > >>> > Zen. > >>> > >> > >>> > >>There is no part of reality that is not Buddha Nature. > >>> > Illusion is part of reality and thus is a manifestation of > >>> > Buddha Nature. > >>> > >> > >>> > >>Realization is seeing the illusion that is part of reality > >>> > as illusion rather than the fake reality it pretends to > >>> > be.... > >>> > >> > >>> > >>When Bill! understands that logic is part of reality and > >>> > thus like everything else is a form manifesting Buddha > >>> > Nature rather than something contrary to and apart from > >>> > Buddha Nature, then and only then will Bill! allow himself > >>> > to completely realize Zen in his daily life as well as > >>> > when he is sitting mindlessly... > >>> > >> > >>> > >>This is the crux of Bill!'s misunderstanding.... At the > >>> > most fundamental level he dualistically divides reality > >>> > into illusion and Buddha nature without realizing that > >>> > even illusion is a manifestation of Buddha Nature because > >>> > there is nothing that is not Buddha Nature... The world of > >>> > forms does NOT stand apart from Buddha Nature. The world > >>> > of forms is a direct manifestation OF Buddha Nature. > >>> > >> > >>> > >>Zen does not try to dismiss the world of forms; Zen is > >>> > seeing the Buddha Nature that is manifested in the world > >>> > of forms... It is seeing the world of forms AS Buddha > >>> > Nature... > >>> > >> > >>> > >>Only when this becomes clear can realization occur.... > >>> > >> > >>> > >>Edgar > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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