KG, Wrong. What you call religion's "colorful metaphors of the past" WERE considered the truth, and the absolute truth, often on pain of death for disbelief...
Edgar On Sep 10, 2012, at 2:47 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > > No mind for metaphor, yet what else is 'mind'? *L* > > That should be a sufficient pointer, but since Bill! is so advanced and knows > so much of zen, and it's story time, I'll belabor the point a bit. > > Colorful metaphors of the past never claimed to be truth, they were only > constructed to point to this. They did and still do so quite beautifully "for > those with eyes to see". This is truth enough. Only the deluded claim to know > absolute truth (see 'original sin', fall from grace...). Still people reject > this for that, ever building new religions from old. No problem in such > expressions, when their nature is realized. > > What was the first thing Buddha saw when he awakened? What did the 'Three > Wise Men' follow? Coming from the East some or all may have been Buddhist - > or Hindu - Zoroastrian - which share older Aryan roots so this is a metaphor > too (or at least making clear their wisdom originates from other than the > prevailing Egyptian/Greek/Hebrew (and now Roman - which borrows much from > Greek) influences. What did Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh represent in ancient > times? Why give an infant those items? > > Every element of those tales tells another story. A handing down. A > transmission. For those 'with ears to hear'. > > This is the difference between myths and fables. In myths all the details > matter, each telling another part of a greater story. In fables some do some > don't, there are nonsensical elements, all used to convey on moral lesson. > Myths and parables (though these appear quite similar to fables) point to a > simpler more profound realization. They are constructed of common and not so > common (mystery tradition) understandings of their day, not just the surface > characters and events as portrayed in a child's Sunday School booklet. > Layers, cultural shorthand, expanded meaning, etc. These are now lost to many. > > Each reformation attempts to re-clarify, but ultimately adds yet another > view. Same happens in Buddhism. This is we are told, why the red bearded > barbarian headed East. Why we have Ch'an/Zen. > > Of Western traditions I like the richer more nature/celestial based symbolism > of mystery traditions that predate Christianity - (though what could be > called the cleaner/simpler expressions like Zen resonate more with me). Many > of the older "mysteries" are carried on and retold by Christianity - and > since this discussion is weaving a Christian thread I'll keep tugging at it > for a bit. > > FWIW I was not raised Christian, have never been one, and am neither a > scholar nor proponent. Still, I'd like to share something (historical, not > religious) about one of the (first) 'miracles' performed by Jesus* - one of > the best known/most repeated (after 'loaves and fishes' - which also speaks > to something not fishy at all, but that's another story) - his "turning > water to wine" at the 'Wedding at Cana'.** > > Seems pretty straight forward, right? He either had 'God given/God > Manifest/Magic powers or it's just superstitious BS. This is not how it > sounded to people of that time, who were not ignorant of the lesson as most > are now. > > In ancient times wine was concentrated (for easier transport and storage - > and to reduce spoilage) and kept keep in large jars (amphora and such). To > prepare it to be served, it was poured into a more open vessel and mixed with > water. In households that had the wealth/ability to serve many at once at > occasions like in this story, this was always done by servants and overseen > by the host or someone elected to monitor the mixing process/ratio and so > manage the experience of the guests (an important an honored position). > > In this context - and seeing that "turning" is also another word/translation > for stirring or mixing (cooks, bakers and gardeners know it as a gentle > turning over/enfolding motion made with hand/spoon/spatula(spade)/paddle) - a > different and simpler story emerges: > > Jesus used this then long familiar wine preparation and serving practice to > illustrate the relation of the worldly to the divine. Separate they are > unpalatable and unserviceable, only together they are able to be assimilated > and shared in/experienced. Also, this story takes place at a wedding, so the > lesson of unity/coming together is doubly appropriate. That he did the mixing > and serving himself, was a big deal at the time, as in doing so he lowered > himself to the role of a servant - which of course he had always been - in > order to also share this very point. A simple and effective teaching - at > least back then. Now its direct simplicity is all but lost on a prepackaged, > single-serving/ready to serve culture. > > See Greek 'Krater' which has etymological links to 'Grail' : > > grail > early 14c., from O.Fr. graal "cup," earlier "flat dish," from M.L. gradalis > "a flat dish or shallow vessel," perhaps ult. from L. crater "bowl," from Gk. > krater "bowl, especially for mixing wine with water." Holy Grail is M.E. > Sangreal (Saint graal), grafted awkwardly onto the Celtic Arthurian legends - > Etymonline > > Maybe not so awkward after all. > > Thus this 'vessel' as Jesus taught, represents us. We are the 'Holy Grail' > (The Buddha, direct realization of/as Buddha nature/Original mind). The Grail > seeking legend being yet another allegorical path to > awakening/gnosis/realization type story, as are the hero's journey archetype > myths with their trials and tribulations/journeys to 'the underworld' and > back again (compare with 'Dark Night of the Soul' and Buddha's battle with > Mara), and all the 'virgin birth'/'resurrection' stories. > > Yes, some of these stories appear really odd, preposterous, superstitious, or > otherwise outdated to us. Seemingly incompatible with our 'modern' > understandings and practices. This has always been so, and why there are SO > many stories. Each age retelling them to suit itself. > > One aspect has not changed: Those who only grasp the superficial, will see > only wow or woo woo. Those who see there is more (less) to this become > seekers/scholars/clergy/etc. Those who realize, truly appreciate the simple > message of the stories. For many these appears as levels, as progression, as > a linear path. Some realize all are one. > > The "mystery' is and has always been in plain sight. The Great Mystery, no > mystery at all, for those 'with eyes to see'. > > Mountain - No Mountain - Mountain again. Gotta love Zen. > > If any but Merle have read this far, I am duly impressed. Cups so full of tea > already, who has room for wine? ;) > > KG > > * - Whether Jesus was a person, or several, or just a character used to tell > the tales is not important here. > > ** - Also not coincidental these two best known 'miracles' - one of 'bread' > and one of 'wine' - are represented in the holy communion/body and blood of > Christ - practice. Reminders of two fundamental teachings. See it as some > spooky kooky superstition if you like. Most do, particularly the 'believers'. > > > > On 9/10/2012 4:06 AM, Bill! wrote: >> >> Oh! >> >> I've heard some have updated their 'mental model' to replace Apollo's Fiery >> Chariot with the 'sun'. I've even heard whispers about some real radicals >> that have replaced the 'sun coming up' mental model with one called 'the >> earth rotates and the sun is fixed' mental model. >> >> Ha! What's next? 'Neither the sun nor the earth is fixed?' >> >> Come on! Give me a break! >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: >> > >> >  jesus bill...you do have a big picture imagination!..me i saw the sun >> > coming up from the horizon...merle >> > >> > >> >  >> > Merle, >> > >> > I saw Apollo on his fiery chariot begin his daily journey across the >> > heavens. What did you see? >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >  so you did not see the sun come up this morning? >> > >  there are both absolute truth and  relative truths >> > > >> > > both play their role in our world >> > >  merle... 9:40pm...sunday night >> > >  good night to all..thank you for your guidance >> > > >> > >  >> > > Merle, >> > > >> > > Well, that depends on whether or not you are looking for relative truth >> > > or absolute Truth. >> > > >> > > My opinions reflect truth relative to me. >> > > >> > > I haven't found any absolute Truth yet, but then again I'm not looking >> > > for it. >> > > >> > > ...Bill! >> > > >> > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >  bill ,,i was under the impression we were searching for the >> > > > truth not your opinion.... merle >> > > >  >> > > > Compassion is much simpler and more effective. >> > > > >> > > > KG >> > > > >> > > > On 9/8/2012 5:59 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > >> > > >  >> > > > >I make exceptions for everyone...Bill! >> > > > > >> > > > >--- In [email protected], Kristopher Grey <kris@> wrote: >> > > > >> >> > > > >> Yes, I am aware of your habit of making exceptions >> > > > for yourself. ;) >> > > > >> >> > > > >> KG >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> On 9/8/2012 5:30 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Kris, >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > I guess it's time I published another 'Bill! >> > > > Caveat'. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > EVERYTHING I post is just my opinion. I'd think >> > > > all of you would know >> > > > >> > that, but every so often I have to remind people >> > > > of that. I'm not >> > > > >> > claiming to be 'right' or 'wrong', it's just my >> > > > opinion. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Yes, it is my opinion based on my experience and >> > > > translated into a >> > > > >> > logically-constructed text-based communication. >> > > > Yes, I do state my >> > > > >> > opinions very confidently and openly. No, I >> > > > don't throw in 'IMO' or >> > > > >> > 'but I could be wrong' or 'I hope this doesn't >> > > > upset you' on every post. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > So again, EVERYTHING I POST IS MY OPINION. >> > > > You're absolutely entitled >> > > > >> > to have yours and it can certainly be different >> > > > than mine. In fact if >> > > > >> > it wasn't, and everyone on this forum thought >> > > > exactly alike I wouldn't >> > > > >> > care to participate in it. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Of course that's just my opinion also and maybe >> > > > you'd like to >> > > > >> > participate in a forum that everyone agreed with >> > > > everyone else. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > ...Bill! >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > --- In [email protected] >> > > > >> > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, >> > > > >> > Kristopher Grey <kris@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > Bill!, your certainty about the nature of >> > > > these people's wrongs arises >> > > > >> > > from the same source as the sins of those >> > > > you point to. They too >> > > > >> > believe >> > > > >> > > themselves right and others wrong. The >> > > > 'right' I was speaking of - is >> > > > >> > > this blind self-righteousness - driven by >> > > > grasping and rejecting arsing >> > > > >> > > from ignorance of our true nature. The >> > > > wrong in this, already clear. >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > There is a reason such things stick out in >> > > > your mind - and it's not >> > > > >> > > about anyone but you. >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > KG >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > On 9/8/2012 4:35 AM, billsmart wrote: >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Merle, >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > I don't know why what I wrote below is >> > > > not clear. The religions of >> > > > >> > > > Christianity and Islam are responsible >> > > > for inciting and encouraging >> > > > >> > > > people to commit atrocities. And that >> > > > fact continues to this day. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > You close your post below with "Right >> > > > marches on". I am just >> > > > >> > adding so >> > > > >> > > > does Wrong. 'Right' does not exist >> > > > without 'Wrong'. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ...Bill! >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected] >> > > > >> > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> >> > > > >> > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, >> > > > >> > > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ meaning what?..clarify >> > > > please..merle >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > >> > > > > KG and Merle, >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > I agree it's people that commit >> > > > the horrors, but in the case I was >> > > > >> > > > talking about it's at the behest and >> > > > support of their religions >> > > > >> > > > (Christianity and Islam in this case). >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > --- In [email protected] >> > > > >> > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> >> > > > >> > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Merle Lester >> > > > >> > > > <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > >> > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ',ÃÆ'‚ you betcha KG..that's >> > > > it..people do the "dirty work"..merle >> > > > >> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ',ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > >> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ',ÃÆ'‚ 'Christianity' doesn't >> > > > commit atrocities, or kindnesses. >> > > > >> > > > People do. Regardless of what they >> > > > call themselves, the ones who >> > > > >> > > > commit atrocities are the one who >> > > > think as divisively and with as >> > > > >> > much >> > > > >> > > > certainty regarding others as as you >> > > > do below. >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > Right marches on. >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > KG >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > On 9/8/2012 12:32 AM, Bill! >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ',ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > >> > > > > > >Merle, >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >Christianity also >> > > > conducted 20 or more crusades into the >> > > > >> > > > > > lands controlled by Islamic >> > > > people that were responsible >> > > > >> > > > > > for countless horrors in the >> > > > name of Jesus and 'universal >> > > > >> > > > > > love'. >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >...Bill! >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >--- In [email protected] >> > > > >> > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> >> > > > >> > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Merle Lester >> > > > >> > > > <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > >> > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> ÃÆ'Æ',ÃÆ'‚ christianity >> > > > delivers hope and ÃÆ'Æ',ÃÆ'‚ universal love. >> > > > >> > > > > > >> the teachings are >> > > > profound and deep >> > > > >> > > > > > >> open your >> > > > heart..and let the sun shine in! >> > > > >> > > > > > >> ÃÆ'Æ',ÃÆ'‚ merle >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> On 9/7/2012 6:57 >> > > > AM, Edgar Owen wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > Christianity >> > > > is the biggest scam on the planet >> > > > >> > > > > > because it promises >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > everything and >> > > > delivers nothing! >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> All appears so, >> > > > when one seeks from other. >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> KG >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> Current Book >> > > > Discussion: any Zen book that you >> > > > >> > > > > > recently have read or are >> > > > reading! Talk about it >> > > > >> > > > > > today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > >> ÃÆ'Æ',ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'Æ',ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > >> > > > > > >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> > > > >> > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > >
