Perhaps Edgar is just conditioned more 'Old Testament' than 'New
Testament'. ;)
Either way, this business of Man vs Nature sounds like a Sunday School
lesson on our 'special' role/responsibility - of dominion over the
creatures of Earth. We are 'in His image' - not them (which points to
something far more profound/simple than the literal/superficial
interpretation most imagine).
Responsibility for one's actions is fine. Working together, fine. These
recognize fundamental interdependence and impermanence of it all.
Arrogant assumptions that Man stands somehow apart from the rest is BS
used to justify all sorts of positions. One of them, being the belief
that man stands apart.
I'm not saying the idea isn't useful. I'm warning that it IS, and that
this is precisely what we see playing out!
KG
PS - Intention (karmic desire for change) begets expectation (suffering
over this). If the road to hell is paved with GOOD intentions, the path
to total annihilation demands only the BEST intentions. If we are busy
with all this, what we humans 'interfere' with is realizing effortlessly
arising compassion. Always available when we stop deluding ourselves.
Realizing this, change flows accordingly.
On 10/10/2012 6:20 AM, Bill! wrote:
Edgar,
What's REALLY important is that it's been framed wrong. It's been
framed as humans vs. nature, or as you put it humans 'interfering' in
nature. As long as humans think they are not part of nature and taht
all their action are natural there will be this problem.
When a beaver builds a dam is that interfering with nature? When a
squirrel shits in the woods is that interfering with nature? When a
human splits an atom is that interfering with nature? When a human
manipulates DNA is that interfering with nature?
What is the quality that humans have that other animals don't have
that renders them capable of interference - IYO? (I just made that up,
IYO = 'in your opinion')
...Bill!
--- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Come on Bill.
>
> In human discourse about Man's impact on nature, that's the way it's
defined, and the whole issue is framed, as you well know...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Oct 9, 2012, at 8:45 PM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Edgar,
> >
> > This was a VERY SERIOUS response.
> >
> > Why is it that you think the things that humans do are 'unnatural'
or against nature but the things that other life does is 'natural' and
okay? A friend of mine very wisely (IMO)once suggested that all ethics
should be applied to humans and other life forms equally.
> >
> > What is the quality that you believe separates humans from the
rest of nature so that human activities and artifacts can be labeled
as 'interference'?
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Joe,
> > >
> > > Come on, it's a serious issue...
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > > On Oct 9, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Joe wrote:
> > >
> > > > Edgar,
> > > >
> > > > And Humans are just the tip of the iceberg, too.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know why plants and animals insist on interfering with
the way Nature works.
> > > >
> > > > For example, on the early earth there was a nice atmosphere
without oxygen. But blasted Cyanobacteria evolved which like to sip
the methane and other gases there were back then, and started
polluting the atmosphere with ...Oxygen!
> > > >
> > > > Then -- wouldn't you know -- other organisms formed which
turned CO2 into even MORE Oxygen, with a help from light from the Sun.
The nerve! They got away with it, though, because there were no
Police. The rug was pulled out from under Nature yet again!
> > > >
> > > > Later, some animals evolved, which USE the oxygen.
> > > >
> > > > Much later, some of these animals of the Mammal variety called
"Beavers" began to INSIST that they interfere with the stately FLOW of
river tributaries and streams, by ...damming them up! Such nerve. You
may be sure that this caused inundations upstream, and occasional
floods downstream when the dams burst. Havoc. Bye, bye, Nature!
> > > >
> > > > The nerve of these organisms: Micro-organisms, Plants, and
Animals. Always interfering with the way Nature works!
> > > >
> > > > At least on the Moon there is no such interference, there's
just a continual, thin, rain of meteorites pummeling the surface, and
no atmosphere to make things rust.
> > > >
> > > > Oops!, some exotic Mammals left some footprints on the Moon,
and some machinery, during the last fifty years. WHY must there always
be such interference? The Moon had been Nature's nice, quiet, haven
for rock and dust for so long. Why must things always go downhill?
> > > >
> > > > --Joe
> > > >
> > > > > On 10/7/2012 9:26 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > Why do humans always insist on interfering with the way
nature works?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
