Edgar, There is no path to understand. You are either looking at the moon or you're not. The 'finger pointing to the moon' is a popular zen analogy, but like all analogies has it's strong points and weak points.
This analogy is strong in that it warns you not to mistake the finger for the moon. That part's good, but it doesn't go on to say 'follow the direction the finger is pointing to find the moon'. This analogy is more like pointing out something to a dog. A dog does not understand you're pointing at something. They just get fixated on your finger. One of the weak points of this analogy is the finger which you get fixated on might not even be pointing to the moon. It might be pointing at a Roman toilet brush. In order to find the moon you must first give completely up on the finger. Only then when you're just sitting there with no thoughts, no desires, no goals will you suddenly realize you are bathed in moonlight. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > If you don't understand the path you'll never arrive at the moon. You'll end > up somewhere else and think it's the moon. > > Edgar > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:37 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > Then I do disagree! > > > > It's not the UNDERSTANDING and FOLLOWING the finger that leads to the moon. > > It's GIVING UP your fruitless efforts of trying to understand an follow the > > finger that results in complete resignation which THEN leads to the moon. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > You continually over analyze and intellectualize what I'm saying and then > > > reject your own over analysis and intellectualization. > > > > > > Just DIRECTLY EXPERIENCE what I'm saying for a change... > > > > > > The world of forms is the koan, the finger pointing at the moon. > > > > > > The finger is NOT the moon, but if you don't understand and follow the > > > finger you'll never find the moon. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:03 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence in your previous post. > > > > > > > > It's the preceding key statement that I've always rejected: > > > > "Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you > > > > can directly experience realization." There are times I put this down > > > > to misunderstanding because of different terminology - and the way > > > > you've phrased the statement above is another one of these times. What > > > > you've stated MIGHT by agreeable with me, but then again it might not. > > > > It all depends on what you mean. I've gone down this path with you > > > > before, but when trying to explore just what you think the role of > > > > intellect has in realizing Buddha Nature (like with my recent > > > > 'Repeating Daily Question') you've either answered it in a way that > > > > confirms my disagreement or refused to respond. > > > > > > > > Rather than continuing to beat a dead horse I will, as usual, tell you > > > > EXACTLY what my position is: > > > > > > > > Intellect has absolutely NO ROLE in realizing Buddha Nature. In fact > > > > intellect can act as a DETERRENT to realizing Buddha Nature. Our > > > > intellect is the source of all illusion which OCCLUDES Buddha Nature > > > > and and must be halted/paused/deferred BEFORE Buddha Nature can be > > > > realized. > > > > > > > > Now, if this halting/pausing/deferring is what you mean by 'solving the > > > > koan of the intellect' we do have a broad basis of agreement. > > > > > > > > If this is not what you mean by that, please tell me what you do mean. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > No, you just never understood what I've been saying consistently.. > > > > > > > > > > Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you > > > > > can directly experience realization. It is necessary to prepare > > > > > yourself for a correct realization... > > > > > > > > > > Intellectual understanding is NOT realization in itself... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > You say this all the time. The last time was saying something like > > > > > > 'you must understand the difference between reality and illusion'. > > > > > > That's what prompted my 'Daily Question' which you declined to > > > > > > answer. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Funny, accusing Merle of supporting something I never said and > > > > > > > don't believe.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 3:16 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believed you did not know this because of your MANY posts > > > > > > > > recently supporting Edgar's continual assertions that > > > > > > > > UNDERSTANDING is necessary for realizing Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  but of course BILL.... what makes you believe i did not > > > > > > > > > know this?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because Buddha Nature is not something you understand, it's > > > > > > > > > something you experience...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > > > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > àwhy not ?..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. That's why I wrote it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Huxley's 'Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boys! Here and > > > > > > > > > > Now Boys!' is the same thing as Joshu's 'The Oak Tree in > > > > > > > > > > the Garden' and 'Mu'', Unmon's 'Dried Shit-Stick' Tozan's > > > > > > > > > > 'Three Pounds of Flax' and my 'Just THIS!'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Understand? (...and you better not answer 'YES!!!!') > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > > > > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâàand is that not what the repeat as the mantra in > > > > > > > > > > > the island novel?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or, if you prefer, "Attention! Attention! Here and Now > > > > > > > > > > > Boy! Here and Now!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" > > > > > > > > > > > <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The latter, I think. I imagine it was fashioned in the > > > > > > > > > > > > form of a flat blade, like a palette-knife, or putty > > > > > > > > > > > > knife, probably from a broad thin piece of > > > > > > > > > > > > architectural bamboo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It must have been a common enough accessory in use at > > > > > > > > > > > > the Ch'an monasteries, some of which housed hundreds of > > > > > > > > > > > > monks or nuns, and the latrines must have been > > > > > > > > > > > > extensive. And so the Master made use of the stick as > > > > > > > > > > > > an example, in his teaching. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others might have answered, "The Oak Tree in the court > > > > > > > > > > > > yard" (but at some of the monasteries on high > > > > > > > > > > > > mountains, Oaks did not grow, but mostly Pines did/do). > > > > > > > > > > > > Bamboo could be brought up from below, for building, > > > > > > > > > > > > and for implements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Still others might have answered, "Just THIS!". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Master was very compassionate, bringing the student > > > > > > > > > > > > back into the "here and now" with what he said and how > > > > > > > > > > > > he said it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > huh??????? wiping what.... the toilet or the arse?.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > so it's an arse wiping stick? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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