Edgar, Then I do disagree!
It's not the UNDERSTANDING and FOLLOWING the finger that leads to the moon. It's GIVING UP your fruitless efforts of trying to understand an follow the finger that results in complete resignation which THEN leads to the moon. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > You continually over analyze and intellectualize what I'm saying and then > reject your own over analysis and intellectualization. > > Just DIRECTLY EXPERIENCE what I'm saying for a change... > > The world of forms is the koan, the finger pointing at the moon. > > The finger is NOT the moon, but if you don't understand and follow the finger > you'll never find the moon. > > Edgar > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:03 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence in your previous post. > > > > It's the preceding key statement that I've always rejected: "Intellectual > > understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you can directly > > experience realization." There are times I put this down to > > misunderstanding because of different terminology - and the way you've > > phrased the statement above is another one of these times. What you've > > stated MIGHT by agreeable with me, but then again it might not. It all > > depends on what you mean. I've gone down this path with you before, but > > when trying to explore just what you think the role of intellect has in > > realizing Buddha Nature (like with my recent 'Repeating Daily Question') > > you've either answered it in a way that confirms my disagreement or refused > > to respond. > > > > Rather than continuing to beat a dead horse I will, as usual, tell you > > EXACTLY what my position is: > > > > Intellect has absolutely NO ROLE in realizing Buddha Nature. In fact > > intellect can act as a DETERRENT to realizing Buddha Nature. Our intellect > > is the source of all illusion which OCCLUDES Buddha Nature and and must be > > halted/paused/deferred BEFORE Buddha Nature can be realized. > > > > Now, if this halting/pausing/deferring is what you mean by 'solving the > > koan of the intellect' we do have a broad basis of agreement. > > > > If this is not what you mean by that, please tell me what you do mean. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > No, you just never understood what I've been saying consistently.. > > > > > > Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you can > > > directly experience realization. It is necessary to prepare yourself for > > > a correct realization... > > > > > > Intellectual understanding is NOT realization in itself... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > You say this all the time. The last time was saying something like 'you > > > > must understand the difference between reality and illusion'. That's > > > > what prompted my 'Daily Question' which you declined to answer. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > Funny, accusing Merle of supporting something I never said and don't > > > > > believe.... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 3:16 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > I believed you did not know this because of your MANY posts > > > > > > recently supporting Edgar's continual assertions that UNDERSTANDING > > > > > > is necessary for realizing Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  but of course BILL.... what makes you believe i did not know > > > > > > > this?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because Buddha Nature is not something you understand, it's > > > > > > > something you experience...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > àwhy not ?..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. That's why I wrote it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Huxley's 'Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boys! Here and Now > > > > > > > > Boys!' is the same thing as Joshu's 'The Oak Tree in the > > > > > > > > Garden' and 'Mu'', Unmon's 'Dried Shit-Stick' Tozan's 'Three > > > > > > > > Pounds of Flax' and my 'Just THIS!'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Understand? (...and you better not answer 'YES!!!!') > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâàand is that not what the repeat as the mantra in the > > > > > > > > > island novel?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or, if you prefer, "Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boy! > > > > > > > > > Here and Now!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The latter, I think. I imagine it was fashioned in the form > > > > > > > > > > of a flat blade, like a palette-knife, or putty knife, > > > > > > > > > > probably from a broad thin piece of architectural bamboo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It must have been a common enough accessory in use at the > > > > > > > > > > Ch'an monasteries, some of which housed hundreds of monks > > > > > > > > > > or nuns, and the latrines must have been extensive. And so > > > > > > > > > > the Master made use of the stick as an example, in his > > > > > > > > > > teaching. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others might have answered, "The Oak Tree in the court > > > > > > > > > > yard" (but at some of the monasteries on high mountains, > > > > > > > > > > Oaks did not grow, but mostly Pines did/do). Bamboo could > > > > > > > > > > be brought up from below, for building, and for implements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Still others might have answered, "Just THIS!". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Master was very compassionate, bringing the student > > > > > > > > > > back into the "here and now" with what he said and how he > > > > > > > > > > said it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > huh??????? wiping what.... the toilet or the arse?.. > > > > > > > > > > > so it's an arse wiping stick? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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