forever arguing... try accepting ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~ merle Bill,
If you don't understand the path you'll never arrive at the moon. You'll end up somewhere else and think it's the moon. Edgar On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:37 PM, Bill! wrote: >Edgar, > >Then I do disagree! > >It's not the UNDERSTANDING and FOLLOWING the finger that leads to the moon. >It's GIVING UP your fruitless efforts of trying to understand an follow the >finger that results in complete resignation which THEN leads to the moon. > >...Bill! > >--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> You continually over analyze and intellectualize what I'm saying and then >> reject your own over analysis and intellectualization. >> >> Just DIRECTLY EXPERIENCE what I'm saying for a change... >> >> The world of forms is the koan, the finger pointing at the moon. >> >> The finger is NOT the moon, but if you don't understand and follow the >> finger you'll never find the moon. >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:03 PM, Bill! wrote: >> >> > Edgar, >> > >> > I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence in your previous post. >> > >> > It's the preceding key statement that I've always rejected: "Intellectual >> > understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you can directly >> > experience realization." There are times I put this down to >> > misunderstanding because of different terminology - and the way you've >> > phrased the statement above is another one of these times. What you've >> > stated MIGHT by agreeable with me, but then again it might not. It all >> > depends on what you mean. I've gone down this path with you before, but >> > when trying to explore just what you think the role of intellect has in >> > realizing Buddha Nature (like with my recent 'Repeating Daily Question') >> > you've either answered it in a way that confirms my disagreement or >> > refused to respond. >> > >> > Rather than continuing to beat a dead horse I will, as usual, tell you >> > EXACTLY what my position is: >> > >> > Intellect has absolutely NO ROLE in realizing Buddha Nature. In fact >> > intellect can act as a DETERRENT to realizing Buddha Nature. Our intellect >> > is the source of all illusion which OCCLUDES Buddha Nature and and must be >> > halted/paused/deferred BEFORE Buddha Nature can be realized. >> > >> > Now, if this halting/pausing/deferring is what you mean by 'solving the >> > koan of the intellect' we do have a broad basis of agreement. >> > >> > If this is not what you mean by that, please tell me what you do mean. >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > >> > > No, you just never understood what I've been saying consistently.. >> > > >> > > Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you can >> > > directly experience realization. It is necessary to prepare yourself for >> > > a correct realization... >> > > >> > > Intellectual understanding is NOT realization in itself... >> > > >> > > Edgar >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > >> > > > Edgar, >> > > > >> > > > You say this all the time. The last time was saying something like >> > > > 'you must understand the difference between reality and illusion'. >> > > > That's what prompted my 'Daily Question' which you declined to answer. >> > > > >> > > > ...Bill! >> > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > Bill, >> > > > > >> > > > > Funny, accusing Merle of supporting something I never said and don't >> > > > > believe.... >> > > > > >> > > > > Edgar >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 3:16 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I believed you did not know this because of your MANY posts >> > > > > > recently supporting Edgar's continual assertions that >> > > > > > UNDERSTANDING is necessary for realizing Buddha Nature. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > >> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >  but of course BILL.... what makes you believe i did not know >> > > > > > > this?...merle >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >  >> > > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Because Buddha Nature is not something you understand, it's >> > > > > > > something you experience...Bill! >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >  why not ?..merle >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >  >> > > > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Yes. That's why I wrote it. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Huxley's 'Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boys! Here and >> > > > > > > > Now Boys!' is the same thing as Joshu's 'The Oak Tree in the >> > > > > > > > Garden' and 'Mu'', Unmon's 'Dried Shit-Stick' Tozan's 'Three >> > > > > > > > Pounds of Flax' and my 'Just THIS!'. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Understand? (...and you better not answer 'YES!!!!') >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >  and is that not what the repeat as the mantra in >> > > > > > > > > the island novel?...merle >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >  >> > > > > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Or, if you prefer, "Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boy! >> > > > > > > > > Here and Now!" >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> >> > > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The latter, I think. I imagine it was fashioned in the >> > > > > > > > > > form of a flat blade, like a palette-knife, or putty >> > > > > > > > > > knife, probably from a broad thin piece of architectural >> > > > > > > > > > bamboo. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > It must have been a common enough accessory in use at the >> > > > > > > > > > Ch'an monasteries, some of which housed hundreds of monks >> > > > > > > > > > or nuns, and the latrines must have been extensive. And so >> > > > > > > > > > the Master made use of the stick as an example, in his >> > > > > > > > > > teaching. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Others might have answered, "The Oak Tree in the court >> > > > > > > > > > yard" (but at some of the monasteries on high mountains, >> > > > > > > > > > Oaks did not grow, but mostly Pines did/do). Bamboo could >> > > > > > > > > > be brought up from below, for building, and for implements. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Still others might have answered, "Just THIS!". >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The Master was very compassionate, bringing the student >> > > > > > > > > > back into the "here and now" with what he said and how he >> > > > > > > > > > said it. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --Joe >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > huh??????? wiping what.... the toilet or the arse?.. >> > > > > > > > > > > so it's an arse wiping stick? >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >
