Bill, If you don't understand the path you'll never arrive at the moon. You'll end up somewhere else and think it's the moon.
Edgar On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:37 PM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Then I do disagree! > > It's not the UNDERSTANDING and FOLLOWING the finger that leads to the moon. > It's GIVING UP your fruitless efforts of trying to understand an follow the > finger that results in complete resignation which THEN leads to the moon. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > You continually over analyze and intellectualize what I'm saying and then > > reject your own over analysis and intellectualization. > > > > Just DIRECTLY EXPERIENCE what I'm saying for a change... > > > > The world of forms is the koan, the finger pointing at the moon. > > > > The finger is NOT the moon, but if you don't understand and follow the > > finger you'll never find the moon. > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:03 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence in your previous post. > > > > > > It's the preceding key statement that I've always rejected: "Intellectual > > > understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you can directly > > > experience realization." There are times I put this down to > > > misunderstanding because of different terminology - and the way you've > > > phrased the statement above is another one of these times. What you've > > > stated MIGHT by agreeable with me, but then again it might not. It all > > > depends on what you mean. I've gone down this path with you before, but > > > when trying to explore just what you think the role of intellect has in > > > realizing Buddha Nature (like with my recent 'Repeating Daily Question') > > > you've either answered it in a way that confirms my disagreement or > > > refused to respond. > > > > > > Rather than continuing to beat a dead horse I will, as usual, tell you > > > EXACTLY what my position is: > > > > > > Intellect has absolutely NO ROLE in realizing Buddha Nature. In fact > > > intellect can act as a DETERRENT to realizing Buddha Nature. Our > > > intellect is the source of all illusion which OCCLUDES Buddha Nature and > > > and must be halted/paused/deferred BEFORE Buddha Nature can be realized. > > > > > > Now, if this halting/pausing/deferring is what you mean by 'solving the > > > koan of the intellect' we do have a broad basis of agreement. > > > > > > If this is not what you mean by that, please tell me what you do mean. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > No, you just never understood what I've been saying consistently.. > > > > > > > > Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you can > > > > directly experience realization. It is necessary to prepare yourself > > > > for a correct realization... > > > > > > > > Intellectual understanding is NOT realization in itself... > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > You say this all the time. The last time was saying something like > > > > > 'you must understand the difference between reality and illusion'. > > > > > That's what prompted my 'Daily Question' which you declined to answer. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > Funny, accusing Merle of supporting something I never said and > > > > > > don't believe.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 3:16 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believed you did not know this because of your MANY posts > > > > > > > recently supporting Edgar's continual assertions that > > > > > > > UNDERSTANDING is necessary for realizing Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  but of course BILL.... what makes you believe i did not know > > > > > > > > this?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because Buddha Nature is not something you understand, it's > > > > > > > > something you experience...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  why not ?..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. That's why I wrote it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Huxley's 'Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boys! Here and > > > > > > > > > Now Boys!' is the same thing as Joshu's 'The Oak Tree in the > > > > > > > > > Garden' and 'Mu'', Unmon's 'Dried Shit-Stick' Tozan's 'Three > > > > > > > > > Pounds of Flax' and my 'Just THIS!'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Understand? (...and you better not answer 'YES!!!!') > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > > > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  and is that not what the repeat as the mantra in > > > > > > > > > > the island novel?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or, if you prefer, "Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boy! > > > > > > > > > > Here and Now!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" > > > > > > > > > > <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The latter, I think. I imagine it was fashioned in the > > > > > > > > > > > form of a flat blade, like a palette-knife, or putty > > > > > > > > > > > knife, probably from a broad thin piece of architectural > > > > > > > > > > > bamboo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It must have been a common enough accessory in use at the > > > > > > > > > > > Ch'an monasteries, some of which housed hundreds of monks > > > > > > > > > > > or nuns, and the latrines must have been extensive. And > > > > > > > > > > > so the Master made use of the stick as an example, in his > > > > > > > > > > > teaching. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others might have answered, "The Oak Tree in the court > > > > > > > > > > > yard" (but at some of the monasteries on high mountains, > > > > > > > > > > > Oaks did not grow, but mostly Pines did/do). Bamboo could > > > > > > > > > > > be brought up from below, for building, and for > > > > > > > > > > > implements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Still others might have answered, "Just THIS!". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Master was very compassionate, bringing the student > > > > > > > > > > > back into the "here and now" with what he said and how he > > > > > > > > > > > said it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > huh??????? wiping what.... the toilet or the arse?.. > > > > > > > > > > > > so it's an arse wiping stick? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
