bill!.. it is so true...listen to edgar! you ask me to take my thinking cap off...which would need major surgery.. yet you yourself are forever intellectualising and crying and shouting at times that you have found they WAY.... you remind me of those christian evangelists on street corners waving the bible and crying come to jesus...
if you have to push my barrow up the hill too is that a tad exhausting for you?.... you have your own barrow to push... you are persistent in your hammering.. let go let go bill! as if you are the one and only buddha... you saw the light you have the steps and now you cry: follow me or else! as for the zen garden... ask me bill!..i can send the pics to you privately... ask and you will receive! let us all try to understand we are at different stages of enlightenment.. compassion is the order of the day not constant hammering and badgering folk to come across or else! relax perhaps your journey is only beginning... the novice i have seen from experience tends to gather others to their honey pot so unsure are they.. when they preach they feel security in having the numbers merle Merle, Exactly. Bill is over thinking and over intellectualizing what I'm saying. He just needs TO DO IT! Edgar On Oct 26, 2012, at 3:56 AM, Bill! wrote: >Merle, > >I'm trying to persuade you to think your thinking cap off...Bill! > >--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: >> >> >> >>  >>  bill!..i have my thinking cap on...... be patient...merle >>  >> Merle, >> >> I was thinking of 'pulling an Edgar' and feigning network connectivity >> problems... ;>) ...but instead I'll do as I usually do and that is to >> completely and directly address your questions. >> >> First of all my post below was directed to Edgar not you so I do not feel an >> obligation to explain my terms to you - but I will... >> >> INTELLECT - is what I call 'discriminating mind'. It is our mind that is >> rational and logical. It is the source of all illusion and can obscures >> Buddha Nature. >> >> DIRECT REALIZATION - this was not my term but Edgar's. Ask him your WHERE >> FROM questions. >> >> MIND - This term when I use it refers to the INTELLECT (see above). Some >> Zen texts use the terms 'Big Mind' and 'Little Mind' to differentiate >> between Buddha Nature and Intellect. Some Zen texts also use the term >> Buddha Mind which is equivalent to my use of Buddha Nature, and is >> distinguished from just 'mind' which is Intellect. >> >> REALITY - is sensual experience, also called Buddha Nature. When discussed >> dualistically as we are now it distinguished from illusions which are >> products of the Intellect. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >  may i interrupt..you will need to define what "intellect" is first >> > bill.... >> >  maybe you are assuming something that it is not! >> > definitions please! >> >  and then bill >> >  you are saying "direct realisation" >> >  where from ? >> >  your mind? >> >  what is "mind"? >> >  definition please bill~! >> >  if you sort out the definitions >> >  including the definition for "reality" >> >  you and edgar might suddenly realise through your mind >> >  you are both on the same wave length after all! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~would >> > that not be just so beautiful?? ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >  merle >> > >> > >> >  >> > Edgar, >> > >> > I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence in your previous post. >> > >> > It's the preceding key statement that I've always rejected: "Intellectual >> > understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you can directly >> > experience realization." There are times I put this down to >> > misunderstanding because of different terminology - and the way you've >> > phrased the statement above is another one of these times. What you've >> > stated MIGHT by agreeable with me, but then again it might not. It all >> > depends on what you mean. I've gone down this path with you before, but >> > when trying to explore just what you think the role of intellect has in >> > realizing Buddha Nature (like with my recent 'Repeating Daily Question') >> > you've either answered it in a way that confirms my disagreement or >> > refused to respond. >> > >> > Rather than continuing to beat a dead horse I will, as usual, tell you >> > EXACTLY what my position is: >> > >> > Intellect has absolutely NO ROLE in realizing Buddha Nature. In fact >> > intellect can act as a DETERRENT to realizing Buddha Nature. Our >> > intellect is the source of all illusion which OCCLUDES Buddha Nature and >> > and must be halted/paused/deferred BEFORE Buddha Nature can be realized. >> > >> > Now, if this halting/pausing/deferring is what you mean by 'solving the >> > koan of the intellect' we do have a broad basis of agreement. >> > >> > If this is not what you mean by that, please tell me what you do mean. >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > >> > > No, you just never understood what I've been saying consistently.. >> > > >> > > Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you can >> > > directly experience realization. It is necessary to prepare yourself for >> > > a correct realization... >> > > >> > > Intellectual understanding is NOT realization in itself... >> > > >> > > Edgar >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > >> > > > Edgar, >> > > > >> > > > You say this all the time. The last time was saying something like >> > > > 'you must understand the difference between reality and illusion'. >> > > > That's what prompted my 'Daily Question' which you declined to answer. >> > > > >> > > > ...Bill! >> > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > Bill, >> > > > > >> > > > > Funny, accusing Merle of supporting something I never said and don't >> > > > > believe.... >> > > > > >> > > > > Edgar >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 3:16 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I believed you did not know this because of your MANY posts >> > > > > > recently supporting Edgar's continual assertions that >> > > > > > UNDERSTANDING is necessary for realizing Buddha Nature. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > >> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Â but of course BILL.... what makes you believe i did not >> > > > > > > know this?...merle >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Â >> > > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Because Buddha Nature is not something you understand, it's >> > > > > > > something you experience...Bill! >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚Â why not ?..merle >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚Â >> > > > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Yes. That's why I wrote it. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Huxley's 'Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boys! Here and >> > > > > > > > Now Boys!' is the same thing as Joshu's 'The Oak Tree in the >> > > > > > > > Garden' and 'Mu'', Unmon's 'Dried Shit-Stick' Tozan's 'Three >> > > > > > > > Pounds of Flax' and my 'Just THIS!'. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Understand? (...and you better not answer 'YES!!!!') >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Â and is that not what >> > > > > > > > > the repeat as the mantra in the island novel?...merle >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Â >> > > > > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Or, if you prefer, "Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boy! >> > > > > > > > > Here and Now!" >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> >> > > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The latter, I think. I imagine it was fashioned in the >> > > > > > > > > > form of a flat blade, like a palette-knife, or putty >> > > > > > > > > > knife, probably from a broad thin piece of architectural >> > > > > > > > > > bamboo. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > It must have been a common enough accessory in use at the >> > > > > > > > > > Ch'an monasteries, some of which housed hundreds of monks >> > > > > > > > > > or nuns, and the latrines must have been extensive. And so >> > > > > > > > > > the Master made use of the stick as an example, in his >> > > > > > > > > > teaching. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Others might have answered, "The Oak Tree in the court >> > > > > > > > > > yard" (but at some of the monasteries on high mountains, >> > > > > > > > > > Oaks did not grow, but mostly Pines did/do). Bamboo could >> > > > > > > > > > be brought up from below, for building, and for implements. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Still others might have answered, "Just THIS!". >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The Master was very compassionate, bringing the student >> > > > > > > > > > back into the "here and now" with what he said and how he >> > > > > > > > > > said it. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --Joe >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > huh??????? wiping what.... the toilet or the arse?.. >> > > > > > > > > > > so it's an arse wiping stick? >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >
