bill!..why is tell me why is your understand and experience of zen superior to mine? merle
Merle, Of course Edgar has a say, and so do you and everyone else. That's what a public forum is. It really doesn't have a lot to do with me or anyone else being co-moderator. I'd probably respond the same even if I were just a casual participant. The only difference about being a moderator is I feel I do have an added responsibility to challenge specious posts and statements that are presented as zen. If I were not a moderator I might just let them slide, or if they became too prevalent on the forum would just quit and find a forum that is more specifically focused on zen. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  right bill!..are you not co moderator? >  does not edgar have a say too? >  merle > >  > Merle, > > This is a forum dedicated to Zen Buddhism. Even I don't think that zen is > the ONLY way to realize Buddha Nature, or be 'saved', or 'enlightened', or > become 'clear', or whatever term is used to describe something thought to be > similar. In fact I myself don't subscribe fully to Buddhism nor call myself > a Buddhist, but I did receive formal Zen Buddhist training and have practiced > zen for over 40 years. > > Zen is not the ONLY way to realize 'Buddha Nature', but it is the ONLY way > that is the topic of this forum. As a co-moderator I do not censor nor do I > discourage discussions about other 'ways' to realize 'Buddha Nature' or have > a 'warm, fuzzyfeeling', nor discussions on just about anything else. What I > WILL NOT accept (without challenge) are discussions about other ways, > teachings, methods, ideas, etc..., that then CLAIM to be zen. > > These will not go unchallenged. To do so would be to passively support a > blatant mis-characterization and specious explanation of zen. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > >  bill!.. > > it is so true...listen to edgar! > > you ask me to take my thinking cap off...which would need major surgery.. > > yet you yourself are forever intellectualising and crying and shouting at > > times that you have found they WAY.... > > you remind me of those christian evangelists on street corners waving the > > bible and crying come to jesus... > > > > if you have to push my barrow up the hill too is that a tad exhausting for > > you?.... > > you have your own barrow to push... > > you are persistent in your hammering.. > > let go let go bill! as if you are the one and only buddha... > > you saw the light you have the steps and now you cry: follow me or else! > > > > as for the zen garden... > > ask me bill!..i can send the pics to you privately... ask and you will > > receive! > > > >  let us all try to understand we are at different stages of > > enlightenment.. > > compassion is the order of the day not constant hammering and badgering > > folk to come across or else! > >  relax > >  perhaps your journey is only beginning... > > the novice i have seen from experience tends to gather others to their > > honey pot > >  so unsure are they.. > >  when they  preach they feel security in having the numbers  > > merle > > > > > >  > > Merle, > > > > Exactly. Bill is over thinking and over intellectualizing what I'm saying. > > He just needs TO DO IT! > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 26, 2012, at 3:56 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > >  > > >Merle, > > > > > >I'm trying to persuade you to think your thinking cap off...Bill! > > > > > >--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>  > > >>  bill!..i have my thinking cap on...... be patient...merle > > >>  > > >> Merle, > > >> > > >> I was thinking of 'pulling an Edgar' and feigning network connectivity > > >> problems... ;>) ...but instead I'll do as I usually do and that is to > > >> completely and directly address your questions. > > >> > > >> First of all my post below was directed to Edgar not you so I do not > > >> feel an obligation to explain my terms to you - but I will... > > >> > > >> INTELLECT - is what I call 'discriminating mind'. It is our mind that > > >> is rational and logical. It is the source of all illusion and can > > >> obscures Buddha Nature. > > >> > > >> DIRECT REALIZATION - this was not my term but Edgar's. Ask him your > > >> WHERE FROM questions. > > >> > > >> MIND - This term when I use it refers to the INTELLECT (see above). > > >> Some Zen texts use the terms 'Big Mind' and 'Little Mind' to > > >> differentiate between Buddha Nature and Intellect. Some Zen texts also > > >> use the term Buddha Mind which is equivalent to my use of Buddha Nature, > > >> and is distinguished from just 'mind' which is Intellect. > > >> > > >> REALITY - is sensual experience, also called Buddha Nature. When > > >> discussed dualistically as we are now it distinguished from illusions > > >> which are products of the Intellect. > > >> > > >> ...Bill! > > >> > > >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ may i interrupt..you will need to define what > > >> > "intellect" is first bill.... > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ maybe you are assuming something that it is not! > > >> > definitions please! > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ and then bill > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ you are saying "direct realisation" > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ where from ? > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ your mind? > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ what is "mind"? > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ definition please bill~! > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ if you sort out the definitions > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ including the definition for "reality" > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ you and edgar might suddenly realise through your > > >> > mind > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ you are both on the same wave length after all! > > >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~would that not be just so beautiful?? ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ merleÃÆ'‚ > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ > > >> > Edgar, > > >> > > > >> > I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence in your previous post. > > >> > > > >> > It's the preceding key statement that I've always rejected: > > >> > "Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you > > >> > can directly experience realization." There are times I put this down > > >> > to misunderstanding because of different terminology - and the way > > >> > you've phrased the statement above is another one of these times. > > >> > What you've stated MIGHT by agreeable with me, but then again it might > > >> > not. It all depends on what you mean. I've gone down this path with > > >> > you before, but when trying to explore just what you think the role of > > >> > intellect has in realizing Buddha Nature (like with my recent > > >> > 'Repeating Daily Question') you've either answered it in a way that > > >> > confirms my disagreement or refused to respond. > > >> > > > >> > Rather than continuing to beat a dead horse I will, as usual, tell you > > >> > EXACTLY what my position is: > > >> > > > >> > Intellect has absolutely NO ROLE in realizing Buddha Nature. In fact > > >> > intellect can act as a DETERRENT to realizing Buddha Nature. Our > > >> > intellect is the source of all illusion which OCCLUDES Buddha Nature > > >> > and and must be halted/paused/deferred BEFORE Buddha Nature can be > > >> > realized. > > >> > > > >> > Now, if this halting/pausing/deferring is what you mean by 'solving > > >> > the koan of the intellect' we do have a broad basis of agreement. > > >> > > > >> > If this is not what you mean by that, please tell me what you do mean. > > >> > > > >> > ...Bill! > > >> > > > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > No, you just never understood what I've been saying consistently.. > > >> > > > > >> > > Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you > > >> > > can directly experience realization. It is necessary to prepare > > >> > > yourself for a correct realization... > > >> > > > > >> > > Intellectual understanding is NOT realization in itself... > > >> > > > > >> > > Edgar > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Bill! wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > Edgar, > > >> > > > > > >> > > > You say this all the time. The last time was saying something like > > >> > > > 'you must understand the difference between reality and illusion'. > > >> > > > That's what prompted my 'Daily Question' which you declined to > > >> > > > answer. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > ...Bill! > > >> > > > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Bill, > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Funny, accusing Merle of supporting something I never said and > > >> > > > > don't believe.... > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Edgar > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 3:16 AM, Bill! wrote: > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Merle, > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > I believed you did not know this because of your MANY posts > > >> > > > > > recently supporting Edgar's continual assertions that > > >> > > > > > UNDERSTANDING is necessary for realizing Buddha Nature. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > >> > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ but of course BILL.... what makes you > > >> > > > > > > believe i did not know this?...merle > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > >> > > > > > > Merle, > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Because Buddha Nature is not something you understand, it's > > >> > > > > > > something you experience...Bill! > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > >> > > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > >> > > > > > > > why not ?..merle > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Merle, > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Yes. That's why I wrote it. > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Huxley's 'Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boys! Here > > >> > > > > > > > and Now Boys!' is the same thing as Joshu's 'The Oak Tree > > >> > > > > > > > in the Garden' and 'Mu'', Unmon's 'Dried Shit-Stick' > > >> > > > > > > > Tozan's 'Three Pounds of Flax' and my 'Just THIS!'. > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Understand? (...and you better not answer 'YES!!!!') > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > >> > > > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > >> > > > > > > > > and is that not what the repeat as the mantra in the > > >> > > > > > > > > island novel?...merle > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Merle, > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Or, if you prefer, "Attention! Attention! Here and Now > > >> > > > > > > > > Boy! Here and Now!" > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" > > >> > > > > > > > > <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The latter, I think. I imagine it was fashioned in the > > >> > > > > > > > > > form of a flat blade, like a palette-knife, or putty > > >> > > > > > > > > > knife, probably from a broad thin piece of > > >> > > > > > > > > > architectural bamboo. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > It must have been a common enough accessory in use at > > >> > > > > > > > > > the Ch'an monasteries, some of which housed hundreds > > >> > > > > > > > > > of monks or nuns, and the latrines must have been > > >> > > > > > > > > > extensive. And so the Master made use of the stick as > > >> > > > > > > > > > an example, in his teaching. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Others might have answered, "The Oak Tree in the court > > >> > > > > > > > > > yard" (but at some of the monasteries on high > > >> > > > > > > > > > mountains, Oaks did not grow, but mostly Pines > > >> > > > > > > > > > did/do). Bamboo could be brought up from below, for > > >> > > > > > > > > > building, and for implements. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Still others might have answered, "Just THIS!". > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The Master was very compassionate, bringing the > > >> > > > > > > > > > student back into the "here and now" with what he said > > >> > > > > > > > > > and how he said it. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > huh??????? wiping what.... the toilet or the arse?.. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > so it's an arse wiping stick? > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >
