Merle, One other thing...
You titled this thread 'follow me or else...'. I want you to know that the 'follow me' part is not my intention, BUT even if it were the 'or else' part is just ' or I'll disagree with you'. Why is this such a big deal to you? ...Bill! --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Merle, > > I think I just responded to this question. If I did not or did not do so > adequately please let me know. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > >  sorry..again.. > > > > why do you tell me your under standing of zen is superior to mine?...are > > you playing mind games?...merle > >  > > > > > >  > > Merle, > > > > Of course Edgar has a say, and so do you and everyone else. That's what a > > public forum is. > > > > It really doesn't have a lot to do with me or anyone else being > > co-moderator. I'd probably respond the same even if I were just a casual > > participant. The only difference about being a moderator is I feel I do > > have an added responsibility to challenge specious posts and statements > > that are presented as zen. If I were not a moderator I might just let them > > slide, or if they became too prevalent on the forum would just quit and > > find a forum that is more specifically focused on zen. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > àright bill!..are you not co moderator? > > > àdoes not edgar have a say too? > > > àmerle > > > > > > à> > > Merle, > > > > > > This is a forum dedicated to Zen Buddhism. Even I don't think that zen > > > is the ONLY way to realize Buddha Nature, or be 'saved', or > > > 'enlightened', or become 'clear', or whatever term is used to describe > > > something thought to be similar. In fact I myself don't subscribe fully > > > to Buddhism nor call myself a Buddhist, but I did receive formal Zen > > > Buddhist training and have practiced zen for over 40 years. > > > > > > Zen is not the ONLY way to realize 'Buddha Nature', but it is the ONLY > > > way that is the topic of this forum. As a co-moderator I do not censor > > > nor do I discourage discussions about other 'ways' to realize 'Buddha > > > Nature' or have a 'warm, fuzzyfeeling', nor discussions on just about > > > anything else. What I WILL NOT accept (without challenge) are > > > discussions about other ways, teachings, methods, ideas, etc..., that > > > then CLAIM to be zen. > > > > > > These will not go unchallenged. To do so would be to passively support a > > > blatant mis-characterization and specious explanation of zen. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâàbill!.. > > > > it is so true...listen to edgar! > > > > you ask me to take my thinking cap off...which would need major > > > > surgery.. > > > > yet you yourself are forever intellectualising and crying and shouting > > > > at times that you have found they WAY....Ãâà> > > > you remind me of those christian evangelists on street corners waving > > > > the bible and crying come to jesus... > > > > > > > > if you have to push my barrow up the hill too is that a tad exhausting > > > > for you?....Ãâà> > > > you have your own barrow to push... > > > > you are persistent in your hammering.. > > > > let go let go bill! as if you are the one and only buddha...Ãâà> > > > you saw the light you have the steps and now you cry: follow me or else! > > > > > > > > as for the zen garden... > > > > ask me bill!..i can send the pics to you privately... ask and you will > > > > receive! > > > > > > > > Ãâàlet us all try to understand we are at different stages of > > > > enlightenment.. > > > > compassion is the order of the day not constant hammering and badgering > > > > folk to come across or else! > > > > Ãâàrelax > > > > Ãâàperhaps your journey is only beginning... > > > > the novice i have seen from experience tends to gather others to their > > > > honey pot > > > > Ãâàso unsure are they.. > > > > Ãâàwhen they Ãâàpreach they feel security in having the > > > > numbers Ãâà> > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > Exactly. Bill is over thinking and over intellectualizing what I'm > > > > saying. He just needs TO DO IT! > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 26, 2012, at 3:56 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > >Merle, > > > > > > > > > >I'm trying to persuade you to think your thinking cap off...Bill! > > > > > > > > > >--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > >> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill!..i have my thinking cap on...... be > > > > >> patient...merle > > > > >> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > >> Merle, > > > > >> > > > > >> I was thinking of 'pulling an Edgar' and feigning network > > > > >> connectivity problems... ;>) ...but instead I'll do as I usually do > > > > >> and that is to completely and directly address your questions. > > > > >> > > > > >> First of all my post below was directed to Edgar not you so I do not > > > > >> feel an obligation to explain my terms to you - but I will... > > > > >> > > > > >> INTELLECT - is what I call 'discriminating mind'. It is our mind > > > > >> that is rational and logical. It is the source of all illusion and > > > > >> can obscures Buddha Nature. > > > > >> > > > > >> DIRECT REALIZATION - this was not my term but Edgar's. Ask him your > > > > >> WHERE FROM questions. > > > > >> > > > > >> MIND - This term when I use it refers to the INTELLECT (see above). > > > > >> Some Zen texts use the terms 'Big Mind' and 'Little Mind' to > > > > >> differentiate between Buddha Nature and Intellect. Some Zen texts > > > > >> also use the term Buddha Mind which is equivalent to my use of > > > > >> Buddha Nature, and is distinguished from just 'mind' which is > > > > >> Intellect. > > > > >> > > > > >> REALITY - is sensual experience, also called Buddha Nature. When > > > > >> discussed dualistically as we are now it distinguished from > > > > >> illusions which are products of the Intellect. > > > > >> > > > > >> ...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmay i interrupt..you > > > > >> > will need to define what "intellect" is first bill.... > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmaybe you are assuming > > > > >> > something that it is not! > > > > >> > definitions please! > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàand then bill > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyou are saying "direct > > > > >> > realisation" > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàwhere from ? > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyour mind? > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàwhat is "mind"? > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàdefinition please bill~! > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàif you sort out the > > > > >> > definitions > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàincluding the definition > > > > >> > for "reality" > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyou and edgar might > > > > >> > suddenly realise through your mind > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyou are both on the same > > > > >> > wave length after all! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~would that not be just so > > > > >> > beautiful?? ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàmerleÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > >> > Edgar, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence in your previous > > > > >> > post. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > It's the preceding key statement that I've always rejected: > > > > >> > "Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE > > > > >> > you can directly experience realization." There are times I put > > > > >> > this down to misunderstanding because of different terminology - > > > > >> > and the way you've phrased the statement above is another one of > > > > >> > these times. What you've stated MIGHT by agreeable with me, but > > > > >> > then again it might not. It all depends on what you mean. I've > > > > >> > gone down this path with you before, but when trying to explore > > > > >> > just what you think the role of intellect has in realizing Buddha > > > > >> > Nature (like with my recent 'Repeating Daily Question') you've > > > > >> > either answered it in a way that confirms my disagreement or > > > > >> > refused to respond. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Rather than continuing to beat a dead horse I will, as usual, tell > > > > >> > you EXACTLY what my position is: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Intellect has absolutely NO ROLE in realizing Buddha Nature. In > > > > >> > fact intellect can act as a DETERRENT to realizing Buddha Nature. > > > > >> > Our intellect is the source of all illusion which OCCLUDES Buddha > > > > >> > Nature and and must be halted/paused/deferred BEFORE Buddha Nature > > > > >> > can be realized. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Now, if this halting/pausing/deferring is what you mean by > > > > >> > 'solving the koan of the intellect' we do have a broad basis of > > > > >> > agreement. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > If this is not what you mean by that, please tell me what you do > > > > >> > mean. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > No, you just never understood what I've been saying > > > > >> > > consistently.. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE > > > > >> > > you can directly experience realization. It is necessary to > > > > >> > > prepare yourself for a correct realization... > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Intellectual understanding is NOT realization in itself... > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Edgar > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Edgar, > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > You say this all the time. The last time was saying something > > > > >> > > > like 'you must understand the difference between reality and > > > > >> > > > illusion'. That's what prompted my 'Daily Question' which you > > > > >> > > > declined to answer. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > ...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Bill, > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Funny, accusing Merle of supporting something I never said > > > > >> > > > > and don't believe.... > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Edgar > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 3:16 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Merle, > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > I believed you did not know this because of your MANY > > > > >> > > > > > posts recently supporting Edgar's continual assertions > > > > >> > > > > > that UNDERSTANDING is necessary for realizing Buddha > > > > >> > > > > > Nature. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > > >> > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ but of > > > > >> > > > > > > course BILL.... what makes you believe i did not know > > > > >> > > > > > > this?...merle > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ > > > > >> > > > > > > Merle, > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Because Buddha Nature is not something you understand, > > > > >> > > > > > > it's something you experience...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > > >> > > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ > > > > >> > > > > > > > why not ?..merle > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Yes. That's why I wrote it. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Huxley's 'Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boys! > > > > >> > > > > > > > Here and Now Boys!' is the same thing as Joshu's 'The > > > > >> > > > > > > > Oak Tree in the Garden' and 'Mu'', Unmon's 'Dried > > > > >> > > > > > > > Shit-Stick' Tozan's 'Three Pounds of Flax' and my > > > > >> > > > > > > > 'Just THIS!'. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Understand? (...and you better not answer 'YES!!!!') > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > > >> > > > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ > > > > >> > > > > > > > > and is that not what the repeat as the mantra in > > > > >> > > > > > > > > the island novel?...merle > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Or, if you prefer, "Attention! Attention! Here and > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Now Boy! Here and Now!" > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" > > > > >> > > > > > > > > <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The latter, I think. I imagine it was fashioned in > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > the form of a flat blade, like a palette-knife, or > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > putty knife, probably from a broad thin piece of > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > architectural bamboo. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > It must have been a common enough accessory in use > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > at the Ch'an monasteries, some of which housed > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > hundreds of monks or nuns, and the latrines must > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > have been extensive. And so the Master made use of > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > the stick as an example, in his teaching. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Others might have answered, "The Oak Tree in the > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > court yard" (but at some of the monasteries on > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > high mountains, Oaks did not grow, but mostly > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Pines did/do). Bamboo could be brought up from > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > below, for building, and for implements. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Still others might have answered, "Just THIS!". > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The Master was very compassionate, bringing the > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > student back into the "here and now" with what he > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > said and how he said it. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > huh??????? wiping what.... the toilet or the > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > arse?.. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > so it's an arse wiping stick? > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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