Merle, I've never said my understanding and experiences are SUPERIOR to yours. They are different.
Everyone's understanding is different. In the case of Edgar and you the understanding you express is very different than mine (and many others also). When I see anyone express their understanding and feel that it is misleading or even detrimental to others I respond. Even though everyone's fundamental experience of Buddha Nature is the same it can be expressed differently. I've heard a lot about Edgar's experience of Buddha Nature but little from you. Edgar's DESCRIPTION of his experience of Buddha Nature is very different from mine (and many others also). For a long time I've thought that just might be due to semantic differences and tried and tried to explore and resolve those. I've been unsuccessful and in fact it seems to be getting worse. I now think there's something more to it than just semantics, but for whatever reason, just like for understanding, when I see anyone describe their experience of Buddha Nature and feel that it is misleading or even detrimental to others I respond. How could I do otherwise? ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  bill!..why is tell me why is your understand and experience of zen superior > to mine? merle > > >  > Merle, > > Of course Edgar has a say, and so do you and everyone else. That's what a > public forum is. > > It really doesn't have a lot to do with me or anyone else being co-moderator. > I'd probably respond the same even if I were just a casual participant. > The only difference about being a moderator is I feel I do have an added > responsibility to challenge specious posts and statements that are presented > as zen. If I were not a moderator I might just let them slide, or if they > became too prevalent on the forum would just quit and find a forum that is > more specifically focused on zen. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > àright bill!..are you not co moderator? > > àdoes not edgar have a say too? > > àmerle > > > > à> > Merle, > > > > This is a forum dedicated to Zen Buddhism. Even I don't think that zen is > > the ONLY way to realize Buddha Nature, or be 'saved', or 'enlightened', or > > become 'clear', or whatever term is used to describe something thought to > > be similar. In fact I myself don't subscribe fully to Buddhism nor call > > myself a Buddhist, but I did receive formal Zen Buddhist training and have > > practiced zen for over 40 years. > > > > Zen is not the ONLY way to realize 'Buddha Nature', but it is the ONLY way > > that is the topic of this forum. As a co-moderator I do not censor nor do > > I discourage discussions about other 'ways' to realize 'Buddha Nature' or > > have a 'warm, fuzzyfeeling', nor discussions on just about anything else. > > What I WILL NOT accept (without challenge) are discussions about other > > ways, teachings, methods, ideas, etc..., that then CLAIM to be zen. > > > > These will not go unchallenged. To do so would be to passively support a > > blatant mis-characterization and specious explanation of zen. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâàbill!.. > > > it is so true...listen to edgar! > > > you ask me to take my thinking cap off...which would need major surgery.. > > > yet you yourself are forever intellectualising and crying and shouting at > > > times that you have found they WAY....Ãâà> > > you remind me of those christian evangelists on street corners waving the > > > bible and crying come to jesus... > > > > > > if you have to push my barrow up the hill too is that a tad exhausting > > > for you?....Ãâà> > > you have your own barrow to push... > > > you are persistent in your hammering.. > > > let go let go bill! as if you are the one and only buddha...Ãâà> > > you saw the light you have the steps and now you cry: follow me or else! > > > > > > as for the zen garden... > > > ask me bill!..i can send the pics to you privately... ask and you will > > > receive! > > > > > > Ãâàlet us all try to understand we are at different stages of > > > enlightenment.. > > > compassion is the order of the day not constant hammering and badgering > > > folk to come across or else! > > > Ãâàrelax > > > Ãâàperhaps your journey is only beginning... > > > the novice i have seen from experience tends to gather others to their > > > honey pot > > > Ãâàso unsure are they.. > > > Ãâàwhen they Ãâàpreach they feel security in having the > > > numbers Ãâà> > > merle > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > Merle, > > > > > > Exactly. Bill is over thinking and over intellectualizing what I'm > > > saying. He just needs TO DO IT! > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 26, 2012, at 3:56 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > Ãâà> > > >Merle, > > > > > > > >I'm trying to persuade you to think your thinking cap off...Bill! > > > > > > > >--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > >> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill!..i have my thinking cap on...... be > > > >> patient...merle > > > >> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > >> Merle, > > > >> > > > >> I was thinking of 'pulling an Edgar' and feigning network connectivity > > > >> problems... ;>) ...but instead I'll do as I usually do and that is to > > > >> completely and directly address your questions. > > > >> > > > >> First of all my post below was directed to Edgar not you so I do not > > > >> feel an obligation to explain my terms to you - but I will... > > > >> > > > >> INTELLECT - is what I call 'discriminating mind'. It is our mind > > > >> that is rational and logical. It is the source of all illusion and > > > >> can obscures Buddha Nature. > > > >> > > > >> DIRECT REALIZATION - this was not my term but Edgar's. Ask him your > > > >> WHERE FROM questions. > > > >> > > > >> MIND - This term when I use it refers to the INTELLECT (see above). > > > >> Some Zen texts use the terms 'Big Mind' and 'Little Mind' to > > > >> differentiate between Buddha Nature and Intellect. Some Zen texts > > > >> also use the term Buddha Mind which is equivalent to my use of Buddha > > > >> Nature, and is distinguished from just 'mind' which is Intellect. > > > >> > > > >> REALITY - is sensual experience, also called Buddha Nature. When > > > >> discussed dualistically as we are now it distinguished from illusions > > > >> which are products of the Intellect. > > > >> > > > >> ...Bill! > > > >> > > > >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmay i interrupt..you will > > > >> > need to define what "intellect" is first bill.... > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmaybe you are assuming > > > >> > something that it is not! > > > >> > definitions please! > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàand then bill > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyou are saying "direct > > > >> > realisation" > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàwhere from ? > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyour mind? > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàwhat is "mind"? > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàdefinition please bill~! > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàif you sort out the > > > >> > definitions > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàincluding the definition > > > >> > for "reality" > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyou and edgar might > > > >> > suddenly realise through your mind > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyou are both on the same > > > >> > wave length after all! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~would that not be just so > > > >> > beautiful?? ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàmerleÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > >> > Edgar, > > > >> > > > > >> > I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence in your previous post. > > > >> > > > > >> > It's the preceding key statement that I've always rejected: > > > >> > "Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE you > > > >> > can directly experience realization." There are times I put this > > > >> > down to misunderstanding because of different terminology - and the > > > >> > way you've phrased the statement above is another one of these > > > >> > times. What you've stated MIGHT by agreeable with me, but then > > > >> > again it might not. It all depends on what you mean. I've gone > > > >> > down this path with you before, but when trying to explore just what > > > >> > you think the role of intellect has in realizing Buddha Nature (like > > > >> > with my recent 'Repeating Daily Question') you've either answered it > > > >> > in a way that confirms my disagreement or refused to respond. > > > >> > > > > >> > Rather than continuing to beat a dead horse I will, as usual, tell > > > >> > you EXACTLY what my position is: > > > >> > > > > >> > Intellect has absolutely NO ROLE in realizing Buddha Nature. In > > > >> > fact intellect can act as a DETERRENT to realizing Buddha Nature. > > > >> > Our intellect is the source of all illusion which OCCLUDES Buddha > > > >> > Nature and and must be halted/paused/deferred BEFORE Buddha Nature > > > >> > can be realized. > > > >> > > > > >> > Now, if this halting/pausing/deferring is what you mean by 'solving > > > >> > the koan of the intellect' we do have a broad basis of agreement. > > > >> > > > > >> > If this is not what you mean by that, please tell me what you do > > > >> > mean. > > > >> > > > > >> > ...Bill! > > > >> > > > > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > >> > > No, you just never understood what I've been saying consistently.. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Intellectual understanding is the koan you need to solve BEFORE > > > >> > > you can directly experience realization. It is necessary to > > > >> > > prepare yourself for a correct realization... > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Intellectual understanding is NOT realization in itself... > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Edgar > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Edgar, > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > You say this all the time. The last time was saying something > > > >> > > > like 'you must understand the difference between reality and > > > >> > > > illusion'. That's what prompted my 'Daily Question' which you > > > >> > > > declined to answer. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > ...Bill! > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > Bill, > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > Funny, accusing Merle of supporting something I never said and > > > >> > > > > don't believe.... > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > Edgar > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 3:16 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Merle, > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > I believed you did not know this because of your MANY posts > > > >> > > > > > recently supporting Edgar's continual assertions that > > > >> > > > > > UNDERSTANDING is necessary for realizing Buddha Nature. > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > >> > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ but of > > > >> > > > > > > course BILL.... what makes you believe i did not know > > > >> > > > > > > this?...merle > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ > > > >> > > > > > > Merle, > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Because Buddha Nature is not something you understand, > > > >> > > > > > > it's something you experience...Bill! > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > >> > > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ > > > >> > > > > > > > why not ?..merle > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Merle, > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Yes. That's why I wrote it. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Huxley's 'Attention! Attention! Here and Now Boys! Here > > > >> > > > > > > > and Now Boys!' is the same thing as Joshu's 'The Oak > > > >> > > > > > > > Tree in the Garden' and 'Mu'', Unmon's 'Dried > > > >> > > > > > > > Shit-Stick' Tozan's 'Three Pounds of Flax' and my 'Just > > > >> > > > > > > > THIS!'. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Understand? (...and you better not answer 'YES!!!!') > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > >> > > > > > > > <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ > > > >> > > > > > > > > and is that not what the repeat as the mantra in the > > > >> > > > > > > > > island novel?...merle > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Or, if you prefer, "Attention! Attention! Here and Now > > > >> > > > > > > > > Boy! Here and Now!" > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" > > > >> > > > > > > > > <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The latter, I think. I imagine it was fashioned in > > > >> > > > > > > > > > the form of a flat blade, like a palette-knife, or > > > >> > > > > > > > > > putty knife, probably from a broad thin piece of > > > >> > > > > > > > > > architectural bamboo. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > It must have been a common enough accessory in use > > > >> > > > > > > > > > at the Ch'an monasteries, some of which housed > > > >> > > > > > > > > > hundreds of monks or nuns, and the latrines must > > > >> > > > > > > > > > have been extensive. And so the Master made use of > > > >> > > > > > > > > > the stick as an example, in his teaching. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Others might have answered, "The Oak Tree in the > > > >> > > > > > > > > > court yard" (but at some of the monasteries on high > > > >> > > > > > > > > > mountains, Oaks did not grow, but mostly Pines > > > >> > > > > > > > > > did/do). Bamboo could be brought up from below, for > > > >> > > > > > > > > > building, and for implements. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Still others might have answered, "Just THIS!". > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The Master was very compassionate, bringing the > > > >> > > > > > > > > > student back into the "here and now" with what he > > > >> > > > > > > > > > said and how he said it. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > huh??????? wiping what.... the toilet or the > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > arse?.. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > so it's an arse wiping stick? > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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