indeed edgar..apparently according to the gospel of billllllllllll....... we are peas in a pod.... merle Hi Merle,
Yes, agreed. Lots of unrealized Zen Zombies out there in the malls. Also a few Zenbies stumbling mindlessly around in circles on this group as well... Zen Mindlessness is not to be confused with Mall Mindlessness! Edgar On Nov 13, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > > >edgar. > > >.i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it except i >cannot explain it like you have.. > > >.zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i see it we >zen through the day.. > > >.practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, eyes >shut tight, sniffing incense and listening to gongs." > > >.it's being out there in the real world every minute alert breathing the >breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak.. > > >. as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their hands and >shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me remind them.. > > >.it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding > > > it's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking and talking as if in >a shadowland( plato's cave)..... > > >next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and you'll very soon >understand > > >merle > > > >Edgar, > > >It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the same about >your theories. > > > >"It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when the Zen >texts were written." > > > >Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the Patriarchs >weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is this discovery >definitive or could there be further "updates" which would render the Zen you >practice now obsolete? Are you in fact practicing Zen or something different >entirely? > > > >Mike > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34 >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous? > > > >Joe, > > >I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving' actually >means... > > >Mind is a computational system that continually computes sensations, actions >etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no escaping that so long as you are >alive. In fact measurements show that mind is almost as active during sleep as >when awake. > > >So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it precisely >because your mind is moving. > > >What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind moves in >sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is mind not moving' >platitude was written centuries ago when the computational dynamics of mind >were not understood. It refers to a state when you don't consciously think you >are deciding to take particular actions but actions seem to flow spontaneously >from an unconscious inner source. However it is now known that is always >happening anyway. The conscious mind actually very rarely makes any decisions >at all even though it thinks it does. That's the illusion. The source of >almost all decisions and actions is always the unconscious inner computational >system. > > >It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when the Zen >texts were written. > > >So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is realization >that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually happening, not getting >rid of all thoughts which is of course impossible if you want to function in >reality and survive through the day... > > >True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead! > > > > >If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I put it to >him... > > >Edgar > > > > > > > > > > >On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote: > > >>Edgar, >> >>Ha, ha. >> >>Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment. >> >>Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow a logical >>exposition: >> >>The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on rice paper do >>so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do it with NO mind (and >>hence, no mind-motion). >> >>I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT of >>meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your BODY, VERY >>SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles from the waist, first in >>direction, then in the other". >> >>That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain >>developments on retreat... >> >>...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind, and the body >>could nonetheless move. >> >>But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all was a >>continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly possible, and >>richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions were the best I have ever >>done. >> >>And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type. >> >>I had to type. >> >>I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced radio-telescope >>from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin Hall, 120th Street and >>Broadway. I discovered in these months giant filaments of cold molecular >>gas, constrained and confined by magnetic fields, in the Milky Way pouring >>from high above the galactic plane in the Orion-Arm, and down onto the >>galactic disk, where the supersonic impact from the flow stimulated the >>formation of stars in objects like Monoceros R2, and the Rosette Nebula. The >>Great Nebula M42 in Orion is part of this complex. >> >>Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more awakenings showed >>the same nature and character of our empty, still, awakened state, in the >>midst of no-matter-what activity. No thoughts: nothing moving. Life is a >>continuous intuition: the only mind is the mind we all share, which is no >>mind. >> >>I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling or >>sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all, is an illusion >>that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to that state only. These things >>are illusions and delusions, but the awakened state does not deprecate them: >>they are simply not present in the awakened state, however; not present at >>all. >> >>Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something moving, and >>of something that takes TIME to pass before the awareness. This appears to >>indicate that free action of the mind is dammed-up, or necked-down, in the >>un-awakened state, into a bottle-neck situation, which is just what we might >>also expect. >> >>NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time. >> >>Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW. >> >>See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places? >> >>Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor formulated. >> >>Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not something >>that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply respond naturally. >> >>And so it is. >> >>--Joe >> >>> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >>> >>> Joe, >>> >>> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The mind has to >>> move to write... >>> >>> THAT's the experience... >> >> > > > > > > >
