Merle, Exactly. There are always tons of things going on. Those who tell us only to shop when we go shopping, or only to eat while we are eating, are just repeating misleading Zen platitudes. Reality is not so simple that only one thing at a time is going on. And the whole concept of quantifying how many things are going on at any particular time is using the mind to categorize and count them. Reality itself has no such separation or counting between things. That's in the eye of an observer whose mind is moving...
Edgar On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > billlllllllll............ i have every admiration and respect for you and > your path.... maybe i am confused... you might shop shop when you shop..so be > it. > > .i shop too however i love observing and interacting with people.... > endlessly fascinating creatures they are.. > > . multi tasking you might add...is that a "zen sin"? > > merle > > > > > Merle, > > There is indeed more to life than shopping, and that you engage it all kinds > of other activities while shopping; but when I am shopping, I just shop - > nothing else. There is an old zen adage to that effect: "In walking, just > walk. In sitting, just sit. Above all, don't wobble." > > You're doing your pea-pod thing again. Where did you ever get the idea I was > "...obsessed with rules, books and teachers"? You do have a very vivid > imagination, I'll grant you that. > > I'm happy you consider yourself your own teacher. I am glad you are being > true to your self, and are following the path you've made for your self - if > that works for you. > > It's probably because I don't consider myself a teacher that my path is much > less ambitious. I'm satisfied with a just trying to put into practice a > little advice from an old teacher of mine: "To study the Buddha Way is to > study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self > is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things." - Dogen > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > > > > > >  > >  billlll you might shop and shop till you drop...there is more to life > > than shopping! > > i said i was my own teacher..you are obsessed with rules, books and teachers > >  be to thy self true... there is no other path than the one you make > > yourself!..merle > >  > > Merle, > > > > You and Edgar are like two peas in a pod...always assuming people think > > something they probably don't and certainly didn't say. > > > > Who on this group said you were a zen teacher? Only Edgar and you as far as > > I can remember. > > > > Who on this group implied they did not believe you were a zen teacher? NO > > ONE to my knowledge. > > > > I read the Zen Forum "...with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and > > alert...". > > > > When I shop, I shop. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >  bill..i shop with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and alert.. > > > > > > you'd betold surprised at the amazing conversations i have had with total > > > strangers who suddenly for no reason eagerly tell me their life > > > stories..and i point them to zen! > > > > > >  i am a teacher after all which all of you in the group deny to me > > > > > > merle > > > > > >  merle > > >  > > > Merle, > > > > > > When I go to the shopping mall I shop. What do you do? > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > edgar. > > > > > > > > .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it except > > > > i cannot explain it like you have.. > > > > > > > > .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i see > > > > it we zen through the day.. > > > > > > > > .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, > > > >  eyes shut tight, sniffing incense and  listening to > > > > gongs." > > > > > > > > .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert breathing > > > > the breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak.. > > > > > > > > . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their hands > > > > and shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me remind them.. > > > > > > > > .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding > > > > > > > >  it's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking and > > > > talking as if in a shadowland( plato's cave)..... > > > > > > > > next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and you'll > > > > very soon understand > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > >  > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the same > > > > about your theories. > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when > > > > the Zen texts were written." > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the > > > > Patriarchs weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is this > > > > discovery definitive or could there be further "updates" which would > > > > render the Zen you practice now obsolete? Are you in fact practicing > > > > Zen or something different entirely? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous? > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving' > > > > actually means... > > > > > > > > Mind is a computational system that continually computes sensations, > > > > actions etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no escaping that so > > > > long as you are alive. In fact measurements show that mind is almost as > > > > active during sleep as when awake. > > > > > > > > So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it > > > > precisely because your mind is moving. > > > > > > > > What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind > > > > moves in sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is mind > > > > not moving' platitude was written centuries ago when the computational > > > > dynamics of mind were not understood. It refers to a state when you > > > > don't consciously think you are deciding to take particular actions but > > > > actions seem to flow spontaneously from an unconscious inner source. > > > > However it is now known that is always happening anyway. The conscious > > > > mind actually very rarely makes any decisions at all even though it > > > > thinks it does. That's the illusion. The source of almost all decisions > > > > and actions is always the unconscious inner computational system. > > > > > > > > It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when > > > > the Zen texts were written. > > > > > > > > So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is > > > > realization that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually > > > > happening, not getting rid of all thoughts which is of course > > > > impossible if you want to function in reality and survive through the > > > > day... > > > > > > > > True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I put > > > > it to him... > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote: > > > > > > > >  > > > > >Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >Ha, ha. > > > > > > > > > >Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment. > > > > > > > > > >Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow a > > > > >logical exposition: > > > > > > > > > >The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on rice > > > > >paper do so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do it with NO > > > > >mind (and hence, no mind-motion). > > > > > > > > > >I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT of > > > > >meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your BODY, > > > > >VERY SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles from the > > > > >waist, first in direction, then in the other". > > > > > > > > > >That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain > > > > >developments on retreat... > > > > > > > > > >...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind, and > > > > >the body could nonetheless move. > > > > > > > > > >But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all was > > > > >a continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly > > > > >possible, and richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions were > > > > >the best I have ever done. > > > > > > > > > >And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type. > > > > > > > > > >I had to type. > > > > > > > > > >I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced > > > > >radio-telescope from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin Hall, > > > > >120th Street and Broadway. I discovered in these months giant > > > > >filaments of cold molecular gas, constrained and confined by magnetic > > > > >fields, in the Milky Way pouring from high above the galactic plane in > > > > >the Orion-Arm, and down onto the galactic disk, where the supersonic > > > > >impact from the flow stimulated the formation of stars in objects like > > > > >Monoceros R2, and the Rosette Nebula. The Great Nebula M42 in Orion is > > > > >part of this complex. > > > > > > > > > >Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more awakenings > > > > >showed the same nature and character of our empty, still, awakened > > > > >state, in the midst of no-matter-what activity. No thoughts: nothing > > > > >moving. Life is a continuous intuition: the only mind is the mind we > > > > >all share, which is no mind. > > > > > > > > > >I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling or > > > > >sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all, is an > > > > >illusion that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to that state > > > > >only. These things are illusions and delusions, but the awakened state > > > > >does not deprecate them: they are simply not present in the awakened > > > > >state, however; not present at all. > > > > > > > > > >Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something > > > > >moving, and of something that takes TIME to pass before the awareness. > > > > >This appears to indicate that free action of the mind is dammed-up, or > > > > >necked-down, in the un-awakened state, into a bottle-neck situation, > > > > >which is just what we might also expect. > > > > > > > > > >NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time. > > > > > > > > > >Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW. > > > > > > > > > >See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places? > > > > > > > > > >Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor > > > > >formulated. > > > > > > > > > >Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not > > > > >something that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply respond > > > > >naturally. > > > > > > > > > >And so it is. > > > > > > > > > >--Joe > > > > > > > > > >> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Joe, > > > > >> > > > > >> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The mind > > > > >> has to move to write... > > > > >> > > > > >> THAT's the experience... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
