Edgar, In Dogen's quote below you are stuck on what you perceive as his emphasis on 'study'. He mentions 'study' in the beginning of his statement and it is also a useful tool at the beginning of zen practice. Dogen then switches his focus to 'forget'. It's only at that point in your zen practice, when you cease your thirst for 'study' and quest for information and knowledge, that the real breakthrough comes - realization of Buddha Nature. I know it is very difficult for you to let go of your attachment to your intellect, but if you ever hope to realize Buddha Nature you are going to have to 'forget' all that, just let go and take that terrifying leap into the abyss. The phrase 'Ten Thousand Things' does indeed relate to the world of forms: samsara, the world of illusions, the world as seen through the dualistic prism of your intellect which as part of it's post-processing of sensual experience creates this world of forms.
The enlightenment to which Dogen refers is the realization that this world of forms is indeed illusory. And it's very important that I stress that when I say realization I don't mean understanding. I mean to realize - to 'make real', or in this case I mean to truly experience as real. Perhaps the reason you have failed in "...trying to explain..." things to me is because zen is not about understanding. Zen is about experience. I hope you will realize your ongoing study of your self is fruitless and you will take that leap to forget your self, and then experience Buddha Nature. I guarantee you if you do that you will never need to settle for explanations again. Glad to see you survived Sandy. I hope you did not suffer an inordinate amount of damage and will recover from any losses quickly. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > If only you would understand and take to heart what Dogen is really saying here! > > Note his EMPHASIS on study. I.e. using his mind. > Note his EMPHASIS that it is the ten thousand things, that is the world of FORMS, that is the source of his enlightenment. > > This is exactly what I've been trying to explain to you and that you keep rejecting... > > Edgar > > > > On Nov 14, 2012, at 4:10 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Merle, > > > > There is indeed more to life than shopping, and that you engage it all kinds of other activities while shopping; but when I am shopping, I just shop - nothing else. There is an old zen adage to that effect: "In walking, just walk. In sitting, just sit. Above all, don't wobble." > > > > You're doing your pea-pod thing again. Where did you ever get the idea I was "...obsessed with rules, books and teachers"? You do have a very vivid imagination, I'll grant you that. > > > > I'm happy you consider yourself your own teacher. I am glad you are being true to your self, and are following the path you've made for your self - if that works for you. > > > > It's probably because I don't consider myself a teacher that my path is much less ambitious. I'm satisfied with a just trying to put into practice a little advice from an old teacher of mine: "To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things." - Dogen > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > >  billlll you might shop and shop till you drop...there is more to life than shopping! > > > i said i was my own teacher..you are obsessed with rules, books and teachers > > >  be to thy self true... there is no other path than the one you make yourself!..merle > > >  > > > Merle, > > > > > > You and Edgar are like two peas in a pod...always assuming people think something they probably don't and certainly didn't say. > > > > > > Who on this group said you were a zen teacher? Only Edgar and you as far as I can remember. > > > > > > Who on this group implied they did not believe you were a zen teacher? NO ONE to my knowledge. > > > > > > I read the Zen Forum "...with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and alert...". > > > > > > When I shop, I shop. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > àbill..i shop with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and alert.. > > > > > > > > you'd betold surprised at the amazing conversations i have had with total strangers who suddenly for no reason eagerly tell me their life stories..and i point them to zen! > > > > > > > > ài am a teacher after all which all of you in the group deny to me > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > àmerle > > > > à> > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > When I go to the shopping mall I shop. What do you do? > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > edgar. > > > > > > > > > > .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it except i cannot explain it like you have.. > > > > > > > > > > .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i see it we zen through the day.. > > > > > > > > > > .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, Ãâàeyes shut tight, sniffing incense and Ãâàlistening to gongs." > > > > > > > > > > .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert breathing the breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak.. > > > > > > > > > > . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their hands and shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me remind them.. > > > > > > > > > > .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding > > > > > > > > > > Ãâàit's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking and talking as if in a shadowland( plato's cave).....Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and you'll very soon understand > > > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the same about your theories. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when the Zen texts were written."Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the Patriarchs weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is this discovery definitive or could there be further "updates" which would render the Zen you practice now obsolete? Are you in fact practicing Zen or somethingÃâàdifferent entirely? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34 > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > > > I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving' actually means... > > > > > > > > > > Mind is a computational system that continually computes sensations, actions etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no escaping that so long as you are alive. In fact measurements show that mind is almost as active during sleep as when awake. > > > > > > > > > > So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it precisely because your mind is moving. > > > > > > > > > > What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind moves in sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is mind not moving' platitude was written centuries ago when the computational dynamics of mind were not understood. It refers to a state when you don't consciously think you are deciding to take particular actions but actions seem to flow spontaneously from an unconscious inner source. However it is now known that is always happening anyway. The conscious mind actually very rarely makes any decisions at all even though it thinks it does. That's the illusion. The source of almost all decisions and actions is always the unconscious inner computational system. > > > > > > > > > > It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when the Zen texts were written. > > > > > > > > > > So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is realization that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually happening, not getting rid of all thoughts which is of course impossible if you want to function in reality and survive through the day... > > > > > > > > > > True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I put it to him... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > >Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > >Ha, ha. > > > > > > > > > > > >Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment. > > > > > > > > > > > >Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow a logical exposition: > > > > > > > > > > > >The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on rice paper do so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do it with NO mind (and hence, no mind-motion). > > > > > > > > > > > >I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT of meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your BODY, VERY SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles from the waist, first in direction, then in the other". > > > > > > > > > > > >That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain developments on retreat... > > > > > > > > > > > >...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind, and the body could nonetheless move. > > > > > > > > > > > >But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all was a continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly possible, and richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions were the best I have ever done. > > > > > > > > > > > >And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type. > > > > > > > > > > > >I had to type. > > > > > > > > > > > >I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced radio-telescope from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin Hall, 120th Street and Broadway. I discovered in these months giant filaments of cold molecular gas, constrained and confined by magnetic fields, in the Milky Way pouring from high above the galactic plane in the Orion-Arm, and down onto the galactic disk, where the supersonic impact from the flow stimulated the formation of stars in objects like Monoceros R2, and the Rosette Nebula. The Great Nebula M42 in Orion is part of this complex. > > > > > > > > > > > >Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more awakenings showed the same nature and character of our empty, still, awakened state, in the midst of no-matter-what activity. No thoughts: nothing moving. Life is a continuous intuition: the only mind is the mind we all share, which is no mind. > > > > > > > > > > > >I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling or sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all, is an illusion that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to that state only. These things are illusions and delusions, but the awakened state does not deprecate them: they are simply not present in the awakened state, however; not present at all. > > > > > > > > > > > >Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something moving, and of something that takes TIME to pass before the awareness. This appears to indicate that free action of the mind is dammed-up, or necked-down, in the un-awakened state, into a bottle-neck situation, which is just what we might also expect. > > > > > > > > > > > >NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time. > > > > > > > > > > > >Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW. > > > > > > > > > > > >See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places? > > > > > > > > > > > >Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor formulated. > > > > > > > > > > > >Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not something that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply respond naturally. > > > > > > > > > > > >And so it is. > > > > > > > > > > > >--Joe > > > > > > > > > > > >> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Joe, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The mind has to move to write... > > > > > >> > > > > > >> THAT's the experience... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
