Merle, Edgar is right. Your mind is moving and very active.
Of course he and I differ on the significance of that. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Merle, > > Exactly. There are always tons of things going on. Those who tell us only to > shop when we go shopping, or only to eat while we are eating, are just > repeating misleading Zen platitudes. Reality is not so simple that only one > thing at a time is going on. And the whole concept of quantifying how many > things are going on at any particular time is using the mind to categorize > and count them. Reality itself has no such separation or counting between > things. That's in the eye of an observer whose mind is moving... > > Edgar > > > On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > > > > > billlllllllll............ i have every admiration and respect for you and > > your path.... maybe i am confused... you might shop shop when you shop..so > > be it. > > > > .i shop too however i love observing and interacting with people.... > > endlessly fascinating creatures they are.. > > > > . multi tasking you might add...is that a "zen sin"? > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > There is indeed more to life than shopping, and that you engage it all > > kinds of other activities while shopping; but when I am shopping, I just > > shop - nothing else. There is an old zen adage to that effect: "In walking, > > just walk. In sitting, just sit. Above all, don't wobble." > > > > You're doing your pea-pod thing again. Where did you ever get the idea I > > was "...obsessed with rules, books and teachers"? You do have a very vivid > > imagination, I'll grant you that. > > > > I'm happy you consider yourself your own teacher. I am glad you are being > > true to your self, and are following the path you've made for your self - > > if that works for you. > > > > It's probably because I don't consider myself a teacher that my path is > > much less ambitious. I'm satisfied with a just trying to put into practice > > a little advice from an old teacher of mine: "To study the Buddha Way is to > > study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self > > is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things." - Dogen > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > >  billlll you might shop and shop till you drop...there is more to life > > > than shopping! > > > i said i was my own teacher..you are obsessed with rules, books and > > > teachers > > >  be to thy self true... there is no other path than the one you make > > > yourself!..merle > > >  > > > Merle, > > > > > > You and Edgar are like two peas in a pod...always assuming people think > > > something they probably don't and certainly didn't say. > > > > > > Who on this group said you were a zen teacher? Only Edgar and you as far > > > as I can remember. > > > > > > Who on this group implied they did not believe you were a zen teacher? NO > > > ONE to my knowledge. > > > > > > I read the Zen Forum "...with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and > > > alert...". > > > > > > When I shop, I shop. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > àbill..i shop with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and alert.. > > > > > > > > you'd betold surprised at the amazing conversations i have had with > > > > total strangers who suddenly for no reason eagerly tell me their life > > > > stories..and i point them to zen! > > > > > > > > ài am a teacher after all which all of you in the group deny to me > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > àmerle > > > > à> > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > When I go to the shopping mall I shop. What do you do? > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > edgar. > > > > > > > > > > .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it > > > > > except i cannot explain it like you have.. > > > > > > > > > > .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i > > > > > see it we zen through the day.. > > > > > > > > > > .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, > > > > > Ãâàeyes shut tight, sniffing incense and Ãâàlistening to > > > > > gongs." > > > > > > > > > > .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert breathing > > > > > the breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak.. > > > > > > > > > > . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their > > > > > hands and shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me > > > > > remind them.. > > > > > > > > > > .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding > > > > > > > > > > Ãâàit's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking and > > > > > talking as if in a shadowland( plato's cave).....Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and you'll > > > > > very soon understand > > > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the > > > > > same about your theories. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown > > > > > when the Zen texts were written."Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the > > > > > Patriarchs weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is > > > > > this discovery definitive or could there be further "updates" which > > > > > would render the Zen you practice now obsolete? Are you in fact > > > > > practicing Zen or somethingÃâàdifferent entirely? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34 > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > > > I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving' > > > > > actually means... > > > > > > > > > > Mind is a computational system that continually computes sensations, > > > > > actions etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no escaping that > > > > > so long as you are alive. In fact measurements show that mind is > > > > > almost as active during sleep as when awake. > > > > > > > > > > So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it > > > > > precisely because your mind is moving. > > > > > > > > > > What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind > > > > > moves in sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is > > > > > mind not moving' platitude was written centuries ago when the > > > > > computational dynamics of mind were not understood. It refers to a > > > > > state when you don't consciously think you are deciding to take > > > > > particular actions but actions seem to flow spontaneously from an > > > > > unconscious inner source. However it is now known that is always > > > > > happening anyway. The conscious mind actually very rarely makes any > > > > > decisions at all even though it thinks it does. That's the illusion. > > > > > The source of almost all decisions and actions is always the > > > > > unconscious inner computational system. > > > > > > > > > > It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when > > > > > the Zen texts were written. > > > > > > > > > > So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is > > > > > realization that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually > > > > > happening, not getting rid of all thoughts which is of course > > > > > impossible if you want to function in reality and survive through the > > > > > day... > > > > > > > > > > True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I put > > > > > it to him... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > >Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > >Ha, ha. > > > > > > > > > > > >Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment. > > > > > > > > > > > >Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow a > > > > > >logical exposition: > > > > > > > > > > > >The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on rice > > > > > >paper do so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do it with > > > > > >NO mind (and hence, no mind-motion). > > > > > > > > > > > >I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT of > > > > > >meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your BODY, > > > > > >VERY SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles from the > > > > > >waist, first in direction, then in the other". > > > > > > > > > > > >That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain > > > > > >developments on retreat... > > > > > > > > > > > >...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind, and > > > > > >the body could nonetheless move. > > > > > > > > > > > >But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all > > > > > >was a continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly > > > > > >possible, and richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions were > > > > > >the best I have ever done. > > > > > > > > > > > >And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type. > > > > > > > > > > > >I had to type. > > > > > > > > > > > >I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced > > > > > >radio-telescope from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin Hall, > > > > > >120th Street and Broadway. I discovered in these months giant > > > > > >filaments of cold molecular gas, constrained and confined by > > > > > >magnetic fields, in the Milky Way pouring from high above the > > > > > >galactic plane in the Orion-Arm, and down onto the galactic disk, > > > > > >where the supersonic impact from the flow stimulated the formation > > > > > >of stars in objects like Monoceros R2, and the Rosette Nebula. The > > > > > >Great Nebula M42 in Orion is part of this complex. > > > > > > > > > > > >Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more awakenings > > > > > >showed the same nature and character of our empty, still, awakened > > > > > >state, in the midst of no-matter-what activity. No thoughts: nothing > > > > > >moving. Life is a continuous intuition: the only mind is the mind we > > > > > >all share, which is no mind. > > > > > > > > > > > >I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling or > > > > > >sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all, is an > > > > > >illusion that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to that state > > > > > >only. These things are illusions and delusions, but the awakened > > > > > >state does not deprecate them: they are simply not present in the > > > > > >awakened state, however; not present at all. > > > > > > > > > > > >Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something > > > > > >moving, and of something that takes TIME to pass before the > > > > > >awareness. This appears to indicate that free action of the mind is > > > > > >dammed-up, or necked-down, in the un-awakened state, into a > > > > > >bottle-neck situation, which is just what we might also expect. > > > > > > > > > > > >NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time. > > > > > > > > > > > >Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW. > > > > > > > > > > > >See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places? > > > > > > > > > > > >Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor > > > > > >formulated. > > > > > > > > > > > >Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not > > > > > >something that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply respond > > > > > >naturally. > > > > > > > > > > > >And so it is. > > > > > > > > > > > >--Joe > > > > > > > > > > > >> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Joe, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The > > > > > >> mind has to move to write... > > > > > >> > > > > > >> THAT's the experience... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
