Edgar, Bill!,
That's true in zazen, as you say.
It's in AWAKENING, however, where Zen begins, and where the formless is
actually experienced. This is the heart of zen and the central experience of
zen practice. You must carry the practice at least as far as this to have the
hope of the ghost of a prayer of communicating with others about it. I know
you deny having experienced this but you are the exception, here; the others
here I'm sure would love it if you knew what you were talking about. Don't you
see that your head is a monkey-wrench in the works? And that's the only
function you serve. You belong in Skeptics Anonymous, or on a Philosophy
board, not here. In this regard, your delusions about Zen really do extend to
delusions of adequacy, which is a pity and a pitiful sight. You bring reason,
and no experience. Puffery! It's like trying to substitute something for
Love, something for which there is no substitute. But in this case, reason and
ideas cover the experience of emptiness for you. And that's self- and other-
defeating. There is no Bodhisattva-work in YOUR career! You have to get on
with things, by dropping everything. After awakening, and within awakening,
pick up, freshly, what's important; one inevitably does this. That is called
"Skilful Means", and the development of skilful means. It's simple, and it s
natural. It is not done by reason, ever.
End of lecture!
You won't find it here.
I know you agree! ;-)
And for the wrong "reasons"; perfectly typical, again. You have no "known" way
out of the straight-jacket.
For some patients, the only cure for them is to let them OUT of the jacket.
That is my only prescription for you. I say you don't BELONG locked-up. Your
self-imposed imprisonment is the only thing that has MADE you crazy, and which
is keeping you that way. But in your padded cell, with arms immobilized, you
do the MOST harm to others. Thus, it is our duty to urge you to "Wake Up"!
Bill!, ...no one can say we're not pushing against an unmovable illusion
keeping this fellow from taking a step from the Hundred Foot Pole! But no one
can remove the stumbling block for him, up there. That's why Zen practice, and
Awakening, is a personal thing, which must be experienced: it's not
book-l'arnin', nor grinding the gears of ratiocination. It cannot be
appreciated from the outside. And it is un-imaginable.
The comic-book-phase has never ended for you, Edgar. It's only morphed to
"illustrated novels". Yes, it's what the Market can push, now. But it's not
for you.
Sorry, Edgar, but all True.
Take a look; Get a clue.
--Joe
> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> It is impossible to directly experience the formless because it has no
> characteristics whatsoever. In zazen one only experiences the RELATIVELY
> formless with fewer forms arising. It's an illusion to claim that's absolute
> formlessness. It's a Zen cliche which simply isn't true.
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