Joe, I've long since given up trying to coax Edgar to take the leap off the 100-ft pole. He is clinging to it with a vise-like grip of rationality.
The only reason I continue to 'spar' with him is to prevent him from completely blocking others from climbing the poll by smearing it with his slippery drips of logic and smears of understanding. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: > > Edgar, Bill!, > > That's true in zazen, as you say. > > It's in AWAKENING, however, where Zen begins, and where the formless is > actually experienced. This is the heart of zen and the central experience of > zen practice. You must carry the practice at least as far as this to have > the hope of the ghost of a prayer of communicating with others about it. I > know you deny having experienced this but you are the exception, here; the > others here I'm sure would love it if you knew what you were talking about. > Don't you see that your head is a monkey-wrench in the works? And that's the > only function you serve. You belong in Skeptics Anonymous, or on a > Philosophy board, not here. In this regard, your delusions about Zen really > do extend to delusions of adequacy, which is a pity and a pitiful sight. You > bring reason, and no experience. Puffery! It's like trying to substitute > something for Love, something for which there is no substitute. But in this > case, reason and ideas cover the experience of emptiness for you. And that's > self- and other- defeating. There is no Bodhisattva-work in YOUR career! > You have to get on with things, by dropping everything. After awakening, and > within awakening, pick up, freshly, what's important; one inevitably does > this. That is called "Skilful Means", and the development of skilful means. > It's simple, and it s natural. It is not done by reason, ever. > > End of lecture! > > You won't find it here. > > I know you agree! ;-) > > And for the wrong "reasons"; perfectly typical, again. You have no "known" > way out of the straight-jacket. > > For some patients, the only cure for them is to let them OUT of the jacket. > That is my only prescription for you. I say you don't BELONG locked-up. > Your self-imposed imprisonment is the only thing that has MADE you crazy, and > which is keeping you that way. But in your padded cell, with arms > immobilized, you do the MOST harm to others. Thus, it is our duty to urge > you to "Wake Up"! > > Bill!, ...no one can say we're not pushing against an unmovable illusion > keeping this fellow from taking a step from the Hundred Foot Pole! But no > one can remove the stumbling block for him, up there. That's why Zen > practice, and Awakening, is a personal thing, which must be experienced: it's > not book-l'arnin', nor grinding the gears of ratiocination. It cannot be > appreciated from the outside. And it is un-imaginable. > > The comic-book-phase has never ended for you, Edgar. It's only morphed to > "illustrated novels". Yes, it's what the Market can push, now. But it's not > for you. > > Sorry, Edgar, but all True. > > Take a look; Get a clue. > > --Joe > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > It is impossible to directly experience the formless because it has no > > characteristics whatsoever. In zazen one only experiences the RELATIVELY > > formless with fewer forms arising. It's an illusion to claim that's > > absolute formlessness. It's a Zen cliche which simply isn't true. > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
