Thanks, --Chris [email protected] +1-301-270-6524
On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Joe <[email protected]> wrote: > Chris, > > Thanks for the well-considered and wise points. > > I guess that you can see that my aim in these considerations over the decades > has stemmed from a determination to feel LESS divided from and judged by > people who express beliefs that I don't share, particularly by those, again, > who express an acceptance of the entirety of Christian tradition and teaching > as true and actual. > 1. If you feel divided from others, sit more (or pray more :) 2. Why would you take people's own beliefs as being significant? Are you going to judge my thoughts as good thoughts or bad thoughts next?! > You write: > >> It in my experience is an error to treat what people tell you as their >> beliefs as some static thing about them. The question is beyond belief vs >> metaphor, the question is right now can I let go of my self and accept grace. >> > > ...and I think that is just right. If I were to *tell* folks that I take > their expressed-beliefs as un-fixed, tentative, or provisional, just barely > standing-in now for something that will be more perfect, more established, > more LIVED tomorrow, they'd point me in the direction of the door, I think, > or suggest something more rude. As Buddha is rumored to have said, speak no ill of others and no good of yourself. Right, if you tell folks that they and their beliefs are but clouds in the sky, they might take that as an attacking sort of thing. But you aren't supposed to tell people what you see, you are supposed to act on what you see. And making more of apparently fixed positions than they are is not always useful. > Although I don't -- maybe can't -- intimately know the minds of those people, > nonetheless, I really suppose that some of them honestly and firmly -- and > calmly and confidently! -- believe the things they claim they believe, > especially when they "profess" them, express them as their creed. Why should > I think they are lying? Because you know the nature of belief and the nature of reality. It doesn't matter what they believe (in general), it's just thoughts. No more inescapable doom than your own thoughts. You can't save them but life does offer, over and over again, the opportunity to help people wrest a little freedom and acceptance from what they thought, to grunt in the right way, to ask the timely question, to smile and let them answer some dilemma themselves. Sitting next to people and listening is our power. No one is asking you to certify their beliefs as "good." Just to be yourself with them, not picking and choosing. > I myself had beliefs of this kind, at juvenile ages. It put great awe into > me, and made me appreciate Nature greatly. I'm grateful for that! But I > have felt no firm and confident beliefs like that since I was, say, ten years > old. I think I became a Buddhist, then. Certainly a nature-mystic, at > first, in addition to a (very) young scientist. But while I held them, the > strong beliefs that I had absorbed from the Church divided me from others. > Others could not have the ethics, the morality, we did, because they did not > have our beliefs, if they were of other churches (religions). Perhaps that short chance you gave to the church is why your idea of christian practice is so rigid - people that follow a path for decades, through life's ups and downs, and burn it into their cells, tend to have a fairly open and realistic view of the path. Children die, friends die, parents die, people sicken, age, and suffer, and yet we get up each day to do what we can, and lo, a wonderful Creation meets us. Each morning alive is a great opportunity, a great chance. > If the metaphor is, "The Good in us is constantly being crucified, but it > resurrects", then I am definitely on-board, and not divided. No matter what, you are not divided (unless you want to be, I guess :) > But if the teaching and teachers and practitioners do NOT take as > metaphorical Jesus' statement, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life,", > then, I don't see how to climb on board, to practice with them. Is there more than one Way or multiplicity of Lives? Not in the zendo and not in the world, and not in the church. > > The issue is this: if they are true believers, and I take it all as > wonderfully helpful and life-giving poetry, they may resent me just "going > through the motions, and not believing anything", as they might say. Obviously, if you don't consider yourself part of the community, then they may not consider you to be part of the community, but in my experience, being present, being open, struggling with the unsatisfactory nature of life, helping your fellows, singing, these are what make a difference. Generally, no one is quizzing you, and no one is unfamiliar with the chimeric nature of belief - most practitioners understand we do not in our small selfs worship, but we are open to God's presence in worship flowing through us, making our silly small self something worth living out as best as possible, not by holding on it, but by letting go of it. Of course if by "going through the motions" you mean sitting there judging others or fiddling with you phone rather than standing, sitting, kneeling, apologizing, eating, singing, whispering to the children, then yes that sort of half-hearted life will eventually be noticed and bring sadness. But that's also not completely rare in the spiritual path. You know, just turn off you ringer and we'll let you be all discontented. > Now, then, what ABOUT the person who *is* just going through the motions, and > not believing anything?, nor even taking the teachings as useful and wise > metaphors? I think that person would be acting questionably, from > everybody's point of view. ;-) There are no cut off little people - we are one. We receive grace and are already saved, not needing to do a thing. Or each little person is made imago dei, a sacred and unique combination here to show us an aspect of the One that no one else can. This is the reason the main "Credo" is "We believe..." not "I believe..." It doesn't matter what you think you believe, the community takes care of the details. You can just receive grace and partake of creation and love your neighbor. What is offered is from God, and it is God's business what people do with that - we are merely facilitators, not responsible for the ultimate outcome, but simply to make the coffee hour as good a coffee hour as possible. > > Well, I'll let it go. I re-visit all of this very often. First leakage of > it here, I think, though. An interesting dialog. Thank you. --Chris > > --Joe > >> ChrisAustinLane <chris@...> wrote: >> >> Thanks, >> Chris Austin-Lane >> Sent from a cell phone >> >> On Dec 15, 2012, at 14:33, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: >> >> > Chris, >> > >> > Thanks very much for your perspectives. >> > >> > One thing jumps out for me to be clear about: >> > >> > Joe wrote: >> >>> But can we also worship with them? I'd say "Yes". I think that ritual >> >> and group practice of this kind and other kinds (simple Assembly, or >> >> Meeting, as in Quaker practice, or Zazen as in Zen circles) graciously >> >> makes visible the invisible, which must always remain *invisible* (the >> >> Absolute). >> > >> >> Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: >> >> >> >> Them/us? >> > >> > Yes, Chris, I'm taking it all the way back to the beginning there, at the >> > end. The "them/us" is (1.) the community of those who take the revealed >> > tradition as actually and really true, and (2.) those who take it all, or >> > mostly, as metaphor. >> >> It in my experience is an error to treat what people tell you as their >> beliefs as some static thing about them. The question is beyond belief vs >> metaphor, the question is right now can I let go of my self and accept >> grace. Even with people with very conservative sounding beliefs, the person >> is not their self idea (whether they say this or not) and every person takes >> action in the moment; that moment is the crux of the matter. And sometimes a >> person expressing more open belief systems is none the less not that open to >> other people >> >> As I said there is more diversity of actual belief, varying by person but >> also by time, situation, and circumstance, among my church that I know about >> than on the internets. Dividing people into believing this or that is only >> provisionally useful and usually less useful than establishing and sticking >> to a kind perspective that seeks not to divide or judge. >> >> >> > I claim we CAN practice together Perhap, and can worship together. Even >> > though we "share" (!) different theology, don't share BELIEF (in a >> > personal God), and don't share a FAITH (in a personal Savior). Big step! >> > I don't know if you agree. But for all the reasons in my previous post, I >> > make the jump to claim we can, or that I can. >> > >> > --Joe >> > >> > PS I would not be surprised to hear that certain clergy take the whole >> > ball of wax as metaphor, even Roman Catholic priests. They may behave >> > "officially" in ways that aren't true to their metaphoric understanding, >> > however, and we might not get to know their personal appreciations unless >> > we get to know them well. > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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