Sorry, but Faith is not necessarily another word for belief . . . all traditions use this expression. Grace is another word bandied about; to the secularist, we could just call these things, good luck, or a sense of security. Tillich made reference to faith, and all things in Christianity, in terms of 'the ground of being'. So, now we are back to presence.
I have heard Zen Masters use the term 'faith' on many occassions. Lou Reed sang, 'you need a busload of faith to get by'. If you don't have faith in your own zazen, then why do it? Faith is stupid, dumb, superstitious, useful, necessary, not necessary, etc . . . but it does not necessarily have anything to do with belief systems. NLP creates great space for faith. in my estimation, faith has to do with action, taking action, which last time I checked none of us are able to stop in the mechanical universe in which we live. zendervish --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Chris, > > The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for 'belief'. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart of > > Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. There is a > > tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to have a > > variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to folks > > with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak with > > anyone when I have an open heart or ears. > > > > Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure some > > group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly true - > > at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, and I > > think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. > > > > I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or > > anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input that > > clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond > > appropriately. > > > > Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: > > > > (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a recent HBO > > special) > > 10. No snake handling. > > 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. > > 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. > > 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. > > 6. Pew aerobics. > > 5. Church year is color-coded. > > 4. Free wine on Sunday. > > 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. > > 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. > > "And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian:" > > 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other > > Episcopalian who agrees with you. > > Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea > > On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > > It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son > > > of God. > > > > > > You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. > > > > > > I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish > > > story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does > > > *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? > > > > > > I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And > > > I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true > > > picture > > > of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be encapsulated in > > > any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any > > > conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This leaves > > > the picture open to appreciation as a "mystery", which is a pretty good > > > state of affairs, I think. > > > > > > The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the reality, > > > because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived > > > tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for transmission to > > > each generation. That's a big "just"! In other words, the metaphor > > > serves > > > as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the > > > practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the > > > practitioner. > > > > > > I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most intimate > > > with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as > > > metaphor. > > > > > > But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! > > > > > > Yet, it may simply be "Secret". For example: the tradition is taught as > > > literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own > > > understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which impinges on > > > the > > > reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and relationships, and > > > upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And this is, > > > therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can actually be > > > useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds one's life > > > and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in appreciation of the > > > metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. It only forces > > > down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows you to do > > > the > > > real work of understanding and incorporation after you find that you must > > > vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better religion than > > > that, especially if you share it with others. While keeping the secret of > > > the metaphoric nature of the teachings, > > > that is; wink-wink. > > > > > > Well, simple notions, still in a puppy-stage, here, and left that way for > > > decades, but re-visited occasionally. > > > > > > You may also gather a hint of the state and extent of pollution of my > > > "Christianity" by my Zen practice, and experience. > > > > > > I've heard other folks express that they had first to become a good Zen > > > Buddhist practitioner before they could ever have become a good Christian. > > > > > > Any, err-r, thoughts? ;-) > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call 'zen' into > > > practice than how they acquired it. Of course in this medium the only > > > evidence we see is written communication - a very limited medium for > > > demonstrating Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > But I do agree with you that for me zazen (zen meditation) is a > > > cornerstone of all zen teachings. I can't conceive of anyone practicing > > > zen and excluding zazen - but I guess it's possible. It would be like > > > being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You could > > > call yourself a Christian and could in fact be a very good and upright > > > person, but I don't think the majority of your fellow-parishioners would > > > accept you as one of them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
