Salik,
I agree zen = experience, but the discussion was about 'faith'.
I use the term 'faith' to describe a type of belief that has no experiential,
scientific or logical foundation.
'Belief' for me is a more general term and does include beliefs based on
experience or scientific evidence or logic/reason.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "salik888" <novelidea8@...> wrote:
>
> Karl Jaspers referred to faith as a 'leap'. Leap of faith . . . there was no
> way to know, you could understant in some small way, but in terms of what
> Religion offered on a sensible reasonable level, all systems had fallen short
> of completion -- due to our level in the contingent scheme of things. Faith
> is just a way of saying, I can let go and move, take the next step, that's
> all . . .
>
> So back to Zazen and faith.
>
> Of course faith can be verified with the senses, to a certain extent.
>
> Zazen = experience
>
> zendervish
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >
> > Chris, Salik, et al...
> >
> > Okay, if you don't like my proposed simile as in 'faith' = 'belief', how
> > about a proposed antonym as in 'faith' as opposed to/contrasted with 'know'?
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "salik888" <novelidea8@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry, but Faith is not necessarily another word for belief . . . all
> > > traditions use this expression. Grace is another word bandied about; to
> > > the secularist, we could just call these things, good luck, or a sense of
> > > security. Tillich made reference to faith, and all things in
> > > Christianity, in terms of 'the ground of being'. So, now we are back to
> > > presence.
> > >
> > > I have heard Zen Masters use the term 'faith' on many occassions.
> > >
> > > Lou Reed sang, 'you need a busload of faith to get by'.
> > >
> > > If you don't have faith in your own zazen, then why do it?
> > >
> > > Faith is stupid, dumb, superstitious, useful, necessary, not necessary,
> > > etc . . . but it does not necessarily have anything to do with belief
> > > systems.
> > >
> > > NLP creates great space for faith.
> > >
> > > in my estimation, faith has to do with action, taking action, which last
> > > time I checked none of us are able to stop in the mechanical universe in
> > > which we live.
> > >
> > > zendervish
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for
> > > > 'belief'.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart
> > > > > of
> > > > > Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is.
> > > > > There is a
> > > > > tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to
> > > > > have a
> > > > > variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to
> > > > > folks
> > > > > with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak
> > > > > with
> > > > > anyone when I have an open heart or ears.
> > > > >
> > > > > Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure
> > > > > some
> > > > > group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly
> > > > > true -
> > > > > at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues,
> > > > > and I
> > > > > think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or
> > > > > anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input
> > > > > that
> > > > > clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond
> > > > > appropriately.
> > > > >
> > > > > Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian:
> > > > >
> > > > > (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a
> > > > > recent HBO
> > > > > special)
> > > > > 10. No snake handling.
> > > > > 9. You can believe in dinosaurs.
> > > > > 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them.
> > > > > 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door.
> > > > > 6. Pew aerobics.
> > > > > 5. Church year is color-coded.
> > > > > 4. Free wine on Sunday.
> > > > > 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt.
> > > > > 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized.
> > > > > "And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian:"
> > > > > 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other
> > > > > Episcopalian who agrees with you.
> > > > > Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea
> > > > > On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bill!,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was
> > > > > > > the Son
> > > > > > of God.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole
> > > > > > Christian/Jewish
> > > > > > story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does
> > > > > > *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all
> > > > > > ways. And
> > > > > > I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true
> > > > > > picture
> > > > > > of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be
> > > > > > encapsulated in
> > > > > > any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any
> > > > > > conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This
> > > > > > leaves
> > > > > > the picture open to appreciation as a "mystery", which is a pretty
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > state of affairs, I think.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the
> > > > > > reality,
> > > > > > because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived
> > > > > > tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for
> > > > > > transmission to
> > > > > > each generation. That's a big "just"! In other words, the
> > > > > > metaphor serves
> > > > > > as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the
> > > > > > practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the
> > > > > > practitioner.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most
> > > > > > intimate
> > > > > > with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as
> > > > > > metaphor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yet, it may simply be "Secret". For example: the tradition is
> > > > > > taught as
> > > > > > literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own
> > > > > > understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which
> > > > > > impinges on the
> > > > > > reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and
> > > > > > relationships, and
> > > > > > upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And
> > > > > > this is,
> > > > > > therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can actually
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds
> > > > > > one's life
> > > > > > and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in appreciation of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. It only
> > > > > > forces
> > > > > > down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows you
> > > > > > to do the
> > > > > > real work of understanding and incorporation after you find that
> > > > > > you must
> > > > > > vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better
> > > > > > religion than
> > > > > > that, especially if you share it with others. While keeping the
> > > > > > secret of
> > > > > > the metaphoric nature of the teachings,
> > > > > > that is; wink-wink.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, simple notions, still in a puppy-stage, here, and left that
> > > > > > way for
> > > > > > decades, but re-visited occasionally.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You may also gather a hint of the state and extent of pollution of
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > "Christianity" by my Zen practice, and experience.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've heard other folks express that they had first to become a good
> > > > > > Zen
> > > > > > Buddhist practitioner before they could ever have become a good
> > > > > > Christian.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any, err-r, thoughts? ;-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --Joe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Joe,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call 'zen'
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > practice than how they acquired it. Of course in this medium the
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > evidence we see is written communication - a very limited medium for
> > > > > > demonstrating Buddha Nature.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But I do agree with you that for me zazen (zen meditation) is a
> > > > > > cornerstone of all zen teachings. I can't conceive of anyone
> > > > > > practicing
> > > > > > zen and excluding zazen - but I guess it's possible. It would be
> > > > > > like
> > > > > > being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > call yourself a Christian and could in fact be a very good and
> > > > > > upright
> > > > > > person, but I don't think the majority of your fellow-parishioners
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > accept you as one of them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read
> > > > > > or are
> > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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