Karl Jaspers referred to faith as a 'leap'. Leap of faith . . . there was no way to know, you could understant in some small way, but in terms of what Religion offered on a sensible reasonable level, all systems had fallen short of completion -- due to our level in the contingent scheme of things. Faith is just a way of saying, I can let go and move, take the next step, that's all . . .
So back to Zazen and faith. Of course faith can be verified with the senses, to a certain extent. Zazen = experience zendervish --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Chris, Salik, et al... > > Okay, if you don't like my proposed simile as in 'faith' = 'belief', how > about a proposed antonym as in 'faith' as opposed to/contrasted with 'know'? > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "salik888" <novelidea8@> wrote: > > > > Sorry, but Faith is not necessarily another word for belief . . . all > > traditions use this expression. Grace is another word bandied about; to the > > secularist, we could just call these things, good luck, or a sense of > > security. Tillich made reference to faith, and all things in Christianity, > > in terms of 'the ground of being'. So, now we are back to presence. > > > > I have heard Zen Masters use the term 'faith' on many occassions. > > > > Lou Reed sang, 'you need a busload of faith to get by'. > > > > If you don't have faith in your own zazen, then why do it? > > > > Faith is stupid, dumb, superstitious, useful, necessary, not necessary, etc > > . . . but it does not necessarily have anything to do with belief systems. > > > > NLP creates great space for faith. > > > > in my estimation, faith has to do with action, taking action, which last > > time I checked none of us are able to stop in the mechanical universe in > > which we live. > > > > zendervish > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for 'belief'. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart of > > > > Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. There > > > > is a > > > > tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to have > > > > a > > > > variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to > > > > folks > > > > with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak with > > > > anyone when I have an open heart or ears. > > > > > > > > Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure some > > > > group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly > > > > true - > > > > at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, and > > > > I > > > > think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. > > > > > > > > I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or > > > > anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input that > > > > clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: > > > > > > > > (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a recent > > > > HBO > > > > special) > > > > 10. No snake handling. > > > > 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. > > > > 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. > > > > 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. > > > > 6. Pew aerobics. > > > > 5. Church year is color-coded. > > > > 4. Free wine on Sunday. > > > > 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. > > > > 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. > > > > "And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian:" > > > > 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other > > > > Episcopalian who agrees with you. > > > > Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea > > > > On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > > > > > > It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the > > > > > > Son > > > > > of God. > > > > > > > > > > You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. > > > > > > > > > > I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole > > > > > Christian/Jewish > > > > > story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does > > > > > *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? > > > > > > > > > > I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. > > > > > And > > > > > I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true > > > > > picture > > > > > of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be > > > > > encapsulated in > > > > > any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any > > > > > conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This > > > > > leaves > > > > > the picture open to appreciation as a "mystery", which is a pretty > > > > > good > > > > > state of affairs, I think. > > > > > > > > > > The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the > > > > > reality, > > > > > because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived > > > > > tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for transmission > > > > > to > > > > > each generation. That's a big "just"! In other words, the metaphor > > > > > serves > > > > > as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the > > > > > practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the > > > > > practitioner. > > > > > > > > > > I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most > > > > > intimate > > > > > with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as > > > > > metaphor. > > > > > > > > > > But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! > > > > > > > > > > Yet, it may simply be "Secret". For example: the tradition is taught > > > > > as > > > > > literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own > > > > > understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which impinges > > > > > on the > > > > > reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and > > > > > relationships, and > > > > > upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And > > > > > this is, > > > > > therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can actually be > > > > > useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds one's > > > > > life > > > > > and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in appreciation of the > > > > > metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. It only > > > > > forces > > > > > down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows you to > > > > > do the > > > > > real work of understanding and incorporation after you find that you > > > > > must > > > > > vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better religion > > > > > than > > > > > that, especially if you share it with others. While keeping the > > > > > secret of > > > > > the metaphoric nature of the teachings, > > > > > that is; wink-wink. > > > > > > > > > > Well, simple notions, still in a puppy-stage, here, and left that way > > > > > for > > > > > decades, but re-visited occasionally. > > > > > > > > > > You may also gather a hint of the state and extent of pollution of my > > > > > "Christianity" by my Zen practice, and experience. > > > > > > > > > > I've heard other folks express that they had first to become a good > > > > > Zen > > > > > Buddhist practitioner before they could ever have become a good > > > > > Christian. > > > > > > > > > > Any, err-r, thoughts? ;-) > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call 'zen' into > > > > > practice than how they acquired it. Of course in this medium the only > > > > > evidence we see is written communication - a very limited medium for > > > > > demonstrating Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree with you that for me zazen (zen meditation) is a > > > > > cornerstone of all zen teachings. I can't conceive of anyone > > > > > practicing > > > > > zen and excluding zazen - but I guess it's possible. It would be like > > > > > being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You > > > > > could > > > > > call yourself a Christian and could in fact be a very good and upright > > > > > person, but I don't think the majority of your fellow-parishioners > > > > > would > > > > > accept you as one of them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or > > > > > are > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
