Chris,
Yes, at least in my understanding of the meaning of the word 'faith'.
If someone slaps your face do you have to have 'faith' to experience the slap?
If you bite into a lemon do you resort to 'faith' to experience the taste?
If I told you that biting into a lemon produces a taste that is very sour is
that an 'assertion of life'? And if you believe my assertion doesn't that only
show faith in me and my ability to discriminate and describe? You still
haven't tasted (experienced) the lemon.
If you are told by eating wine and biscuits that have been blessed by a priest
(transubstantiated)it would wash away all your sins - and you believe that is
that 'faith'? And if you do eat them and it does wash away all your sins, what
is that?
What is the meaning of 'faith' you are trying to convey?
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote:
>
> Even when faith is known as an assertion of life in the absence of any
> dualustic knowledge?
> On Dec 26, 2012 7:32 PM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote:
>
> > Chris,
> >
> > Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our
> > purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for?
> >
> > What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we
> > experience.
> >
> > All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO
> > uncertain - and what I would call illusory.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The certainty of non knowing perhaps but you are taking the word
> > certainty
> > > without its normal meaning of just like I am doing with faith
> > > On Dec 25, 2012 1:51 AM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > We do find certainty in experience. At least I do...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Life is doubt. no where do we find certainty, not here and and not
> > now
> > > > >
> > > > > Living is therefore an act of faith. each moment we float in this
> > ocean,
> > > > > not knowing, but still here we are. this living is faith.
> > > > >
> > > > > Be not afraid, and may peace and goodwill flow within and around all
> > of
> > > > > us. Merry Christmas!
> > > > > On Dec 24, 2012 8:58 AM, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bill!,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You mention doubt.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect,
> > > > "Doubt"
> > > > > > is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole
> > from
> > > > Faith.
> > > > > > It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor
> > organically:
> > > > a
> > > > > > sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously.
> > > > Your
> > > > > > awakening is living proof of this!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the "doubt" that we are
> > > > ENCOURAGED
> > > > > > to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the
> > > > first
> > > > > > one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense
> > > > determination to
> > > > > > have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or
> > distrust of
> > > > the
> > > > > > sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is
> > > > instead an
> > > > > > "intense spirit of QUESTIONING".
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith
> > and a
> > > > lack
> > > > > > or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive
> > > > idea
> > > > > > does, or even as the pair "existence" and "non-existence" does.
> > But,
> > > > > > again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names
> > > > cannot
> > > > > > be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright
> > display or
> > > > > > manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any
> > > > residue,
> > > > > > and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-)
> > Faith,
> > > > > > determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be
> > > > helpful
> > > > > > as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent
> > > > > > awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of
> > > > > > questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory
> > mountains
> > > > and
> > > > > > put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes.
> > > > Torpedos
> > > > > > away!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --Joe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, "Feliz Navidad!", from the deep
> > > > Southwest).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Joe,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have
> > doubt.
> > > > > > They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set.
> > Faith can
> > > > > > indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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