There you have it __/\__
zendervish --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Zendervish, > > IMO, and as I use these terms... > > 'Belief' is a condition of the mind that categorizes something as true or > real. > > 'Faith' is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical > foundation. > > I think these definitions are pretty much the same as the ones you gave in > the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of your post below. > > Both belief and faith are helpful and maybe even necessary in the early > phases of zen practice. They were in mine. After realizing Buddha Nature > faith no long plays any part in zen practice - at least not in mine. > > ...Bill! > > > --- In [email protected], "salik888" <novelidea8@> wrote: > > > > Dear Bill > > > > Well, we are back to faith and belief not necessarily having much > > correlation . . . all beings can exhibit faith, even atheists have faith. > > And of course atheists have beliefs, but these two things are entirely > > separate. > > > > Perhaps this helps > > > > Faith is in the realm of intuition, perhaps more holistic -- body, mind, > > emotions that translates into a sense of well-being or looking forward > > > > Belief is largely learned, conditioned, reactive, and tries to present > > concepts, ideas, morals, histories, etc . . . which might give a person > > faith to some extent, but is only experiential in terms of dogma, cult, > > creed. > > > > The Sufis spend a great deal of time on these distinctions, as do some Zen > > Buddhists Masters, but the Sufis, being largely under the influence and > > experience of Shariah have really examined just what the nature of belief > > and faith represent. When you have to deal with omnipresent legalism, > > examining what people believe and how they operate become, shall we say > > sciences. In fact, Sufi scholars or teachers, etc refer to these conditions > > as 'sciences'. True enough, Sufism presents a methodology of exercises to > > dispense with beliefs, to go beyond them, but never outside the realm of > > shall we say pure faith. In fact, that is seen as annhiliation in -- 'the > > one'. A complete submersion in reality. Ana al Haqq (the real). Faith is > > part of this, beliefs are not. Beliefs are often a necessary raft to get to > > the shore, for most are lacking in abilities. > > > > Of course, Zen (zen) is a particular case . . . Zen deals with this in a > > more direct manner, not having the trappings of monotheism and sacred law. > > Of course it has its own cultural clap-trap as well, as we can see from > > various posts here and elsewhere. Everyone has a particular Zen. And of > > course this particular Zen is often more along the lines of belief than > > faith == experience. > > > > To the Sufi, or Christian mystic for that matter, there is no thing that > > can be held in the mind to approximate God. We are fumbling in the dark. > > There can be no definitions -- it is incomprehensible, to the Sufi. To be a > > Muslim, or Christian, well that is quite another thing, in terms of books, > > expression, history. But the Sufis take monotheism, or vedanta, etc . . . > > and, like the Buddhist, go to the other shore, abandoning the raft . . . > > but they never abandon the expression of faith. > > > > Most common form expression of Sufis ... la illiha il Allah > > > > There is no God (negation) > > But God (affirmation) > > > > We could talk about Taoism at this point, that would be obvious. There is > > no way for us to ultimately have beliefs. Beliefs are only conventionally > > useful, or not so useful. > > > > All mystics shed the skin of 'religion'. > > > > Anyone interested could find some comparative studies along these lines in > > this work . . . the Perennialist and Neo Traditionalist have written a > > great deal about this sort of thing. > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Sufism-Taoism-Comparative-Philosophical-Concepts/dp/0520052641 > > > > > > Merry Christmas > > > > zendervish > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Salik, > > > > > > I agree zen = experience, but the discussion was about 'faith'. > > > > > > I use the term 'faith' to describe a type of belief that has no > > > experiential, scientific or logical foundation. > > > > > > 'Belief' for me is a more general term and does include beliefs based on > > > experience or scientific evidence or logic/reason. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "salik888" <novelidea8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Karl Jaspers referred to faith as a 'leap'. Leap of faith . . . there > > > > was no way to know, you could understant in some small way, but in > > > > terms of what Religion offered on a sensible reasonable level, all > > > > systems had fallen short of completion -- due to our level in the > > > > contingent scheme of things. Faith is just a way of saying, I can let > > > > go and move, take the next step, that's all . . . > > > > > > > > So back to Zazen and faith. > > > > > > > > Of course faith can be verified with the senses, to a certain extent. > > > > > > > > Zazen = experience > > > > > > > > zendervish > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Chris, Salik, et al... > > > > > > > > > > Okay, if you don't like my proposed simile as in 'faith' = 'belief', > > > > > how about a proposed antonym as in 'faith' as opposed to/contrasted > > > > > with 'know'? > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "salik888" <novelidea8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, but Faith is not necessarily another word for belief . . . > > > > > > all traditions use this expression. Grace is another word bandied > > > > > > about; to the secularist, we could just call these things, good > > > > > > luck, or a sense of security. Tillich made reference to faith, and > > > > > > all things in Christianity, in terms of 'the ground of being'. So, > > > > > > now we are back to presence. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have heard Zen Masters use the term 'faith' on many occassions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou Reed sang, 'you need a busload of faith to get by'. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you don't have faith in your own zazen, then why do it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Faith is stupid, dumb, superstitious, useful, necessary, not > > > > > > necessary, etc . . . but it does not necessarily have anything to > > > > > > do with belief systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > NLP creates great space for faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > in my estimation, faith has to do with action, taking action, which > > > > > > last time I checked none of us are able to stop in the mechanical > > > > > > universe in which we live. > > > > > > > > > > > > zendervish > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for > > > > > > > 'belief'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the > > > > > > > > heart of > > > > > > > > Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. > > > > > > > > There is a > > > > > > > > tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun > > > > > > > > to have a > > > > > > > > variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to > > > > > > > > speak to folks > > > > > > > > with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to > > > > > > > > speak with > > > > > > > > anyone when I have an open heart or ears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am > > > > > > > > sure some > > > > > > > > group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not > > > > > > > > strictly true - > > > > > > > > at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in > > > > > > > > tongues, and I > > > > > > > > think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' > > > > > > > > sect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think most serious people of any religion do not read the > > > > > > > > Bible or > > > > > > > > anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external > > > > > > > > input that > > > > > > > > clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and > > > > > > > > respond > > > > > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a > > > > > > > > recent HBO > > > > > > > > special) > > > > > > > > 10. No snake handling. > > > > > > > > 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. > > > > > > > > 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain > > > > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. > > > > > > > > 6. Pew aerobics. > > > > > > > > 5. Church year is color-coded. > > > > > > > > 4. Free wine on Sunday. > > > > > > > > 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. > > > > > > > > 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. > > > > > > > > "And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian:" > > > > > > > > 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > Episcopalian who agrees with you. > > > > > > > > Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea > > > > > > > > On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus > > > > > > > > > > was the Son > > > > > > > > > of God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole > > > > > > > > > Christian/Jewish > > > > > > > > > story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? > > > > > > > > > Or, does > > > > > > > > > *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in > > > > > > > > > all ways. And > > > > > > > > > I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, > > > > > > > > > the true picture > > > > > > > > > of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be > > > > > > > > > encapsulated in > > > > > > > > > any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor > > > > > > > > > via any > > > > > > > > > conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. > > > > > > > > > This leaves > > > > > > > > > the picture open to appreciation as a "mystery", which is a > > > > > > > > > pretty good > > > > > > > > > state of affairs, I think. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach > > > > > > > > > the reality, > > > > > > > > > because there's no other way to preserve or make available > > > > > > > > > the lived > > > > > > > > > tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for > > > > > > > > > transmission to > > > > > > > > > each generation. That's a big "just"! In other words, the > > > > > > > > > metaphor serves > > > > > > > > > as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder > > > > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > > practitioner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians > > > > > > > > > most intimate > > > > > > > > > with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the > > > > > > > > > tradition as metaphor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, it may simply be "Secret". For example: the tradition > > > > > > > > > is taught as > > > > > > > > > literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own > > > > > > > > > understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which > > > > > > > > > impinges on the > > > > > > > > > reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and > > > > > > > > > relationships, and > > > > > > > > > upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. > > > > > > > > > And this is, > > > > > > > > > therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can > > > > > > > > > actually be > > > > > > > > > useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one > > > > > > > > > builds one's life > > > > > > > > > and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in > > > > > > > > > appreciation of the > > > > > > > > > metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. > > > > > > > > > It only forces > > > > > > > > > down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows > > > > > > > > > you to do the > > > > > > > > > real work of understanding and incorporation after you find > > > > > > > > > that you must > > > > > > > > > vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better > > > > > > > > > religion than > > > > > > > > > that, especially if you share it with others. While keeping > > > > > > > > > the secret of > > > > > > > > > the metaphoric nature of the teachings, > > > > > > > > > that is; wink-wink. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, simple notions, still in a puppy-stage, here, and left > > > > > > > > > that way for > > > > > > > > > decades, but re-visited occasionally. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may also gather a hint of the state and extent of > > > > > > > > > pollution of my > > > > > > > > > "Christianity" by my Zen practice, and experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard other folks express that they had first to become > > > > > > > > > a good Zen > > > > > > > > > Buddhist practitioner before they could ever have become a > > > > > > > > > good Christian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any, err-r, thoughts? ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call > > > > > > > > > > 'zen' into > > > > > > > > > practice than how they acquired it. Of course in this medium > > > > > > > > > the only > > > > > > > > > evidence we see is written communication - a very limited > > > > > > > > > medium for > > > > > > > > > demonstrating Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree with you that for me zazen (zen meditation) > > > > > > > > > > is a > > > > > > > > > cornerstone of all zen teachings. I can't conceive of anyone > > > > > > > > > practicing > > > > > > > > > zen and excluding zazen - but I guess it's possible. It > > > > > > > > > would be like > > > > > > > > > being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. > > > > > > > > > You could > > > > > > > > > call yourself a Christian and could in fact be a very good > > > > > > > > > and upright > > > > > > > > > person, but I don't think the majority of your > > > > > > > > > fellow-parishioners would > > > > > > > > > accept you as one of them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > > read or are > > > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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