Chris, Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for?
What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we experience. All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO uncertain - and what I would call illusory. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote: > > The certainty of non knowing perhaps but you are taking the word certainty > without its normal meaning of just like I am doing with faith > On Dec 25, 2012 1:51 AM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > Chris, > > > > We do find certainty in experience. At least I do...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > Life is doubt. no where do we find certainty, not here and and not now > > > > > > Living is therefore an act of faith. each moment we float in this ocean, > > > not knowing, but still here we are. this living is faith. > > > > > > Be not afraid, and may peace and goodwill flow within and around all of > > > us. Merry Christmas! > > > On Dec 24, 2012 8:58 AM, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > > > You mention doubt. > > > > > > > > You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, > > "Doubt" > > > > is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from > > Faith. > > > > It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: > > a > > > > sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. > > Your > > > > awakening is living proof of this! > > > > > > > > Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the "doubt" that we are > > ENCOURAGED > > > > to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the > > first > > > > one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense > > determination to > > > > have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. > > > > > > > > This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of > > the > > > > sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is > > instead an > > > > "intense spirit of QUESTIONING". > > > > > > > > > > > > As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a > > lack > > > > or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive > > idea > > > > does, or even as the pair "existence" and "non-existence" does. But, > > > > again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites. > > > > > > > > At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names > > cannot > > > > be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or > > > > manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any > > residue, > > > > and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, > > > > determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. > > > > > > > > Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be > > helpful > > > > as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent > > > > awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of > > > > questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory mountains > > and > > > > put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. > > Torpedos > > > > away! > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, "Feliz Navidad!", from the deep > > Southwest). > > > > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > > > What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. > > > > They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can > > > > indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or > > are > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
