mike bill joe, group:..
have you read chairman mao's little red book?..i read it whilst i was in beijing... it is quite enlightening...and not such a bad idea...as in all things... red books green books...bible, koran... it gets turned upside down and inside out when men begin to practise... it's the practise that becomes distorted,,joe...some folk stand up on the hind legs and point the way... and the way is false in many cases... folk like to preach they know best... zen forums are no different.. yea bill..you don't need lists..however maybe just maybe bill!..some folk need a nudge and reminding...and that applies to the zen folk as well... thoughts only...nothing is set in concrete in my case.. merle Bill!, I kind of hear what you're saying, but you're argument about people being so literal is like saying people will exploit unemployment benefit, so it' must be a bad thing. I don't think the 5 precepts, for example, are so arbitrary either. Remember, they were first mentioned 2,500 years ago and none have been taken away and none added (for lay people). Surely you have to give respect, no matter how grudgingly, to such longevity and efficacy. Same with the 5 Hindrances. You might not like that 'hindrances' gets a capital 'H', but if you take a look at them - and not just automatically dismiss them - you'll see they make a lot of practical sense (in relation to meditation). The original teaching of Buddha is as far from religion as you can get. Basically he's saying that reality can be found in our body/mind. It's always there - our very own laboratory. He discourages the metaphysical; mantras; creeds; beliefs; other people's insights etc. His Dharma is rational (it's not always a dirty word) and can easily be experienced if we practice sincerely and diligently. Yes, a Buddha doesn't need a list to follow like Chairman Mao's little red book, but not many of us our born as realised Buddhas. Mike --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Mike, > > Okay, maybe 'mumbo-jumbo' is not the right word. Both of these concepts to > mean something. > > What bothers me about things like this is the enumeration. I think a lot of > people take them too literally. Like believe there are really 5 specific > precepts, no more no less. The same with the Eightfold Path. Or the 10 > Commandments. These types of things are for people who can't or don't want > to take responsibility for their own lives. They feel safer depending on > someone else's list of Do's and Don't. > > Whenever I think of these I always imagine someone carrying around a little > plastic card in their shirt pocket with the 5 Precepts, and every time they > need to make a decision about something they have to pull the card out and > check themselves against The List. > > This is the stuff of religion. Religions create dogma and tell people they > have to memorize and follow it so they can...whatever - go to heaven, become > enlightened, be re-born into a better life, etc... It's all crap to me. > > Zen doesn't just give people lists of things they should or should not do, or > should or should not think about. Zen leads you to experience Buddha Nature > and then you don't have to worry about any lists like these anymore. They're > all somebody else's lists anyway. Maybe after realizing Buddha Nature you'll > make your own list, but probably you won't need a list at all. > > It's like Jesus said when asked about all the traditional Jewish laws. He > basically just said 'you don't need to know all those laws, you just need to > love one another'. > > You don't need any lists, just compassion. And in fact if you don't have > compassion even following the lists aren't going to help you anyway. > > That's my take on it anyway... > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "mike" <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Bill!, > > > > I'm still confused as to why you would consider these terms mumbo jumbo. > > For example, 'The 5 Precepts' pin-point the problems we face when we sit > > own to meditate. Take any one of the precepts (not to harm any living > > thing; steal; sexual misconduct; lie; intoxication). They're not commands > > like in Christianity, but they help facilitate meditation because a vow > > keeps us mindful of not breaking them. It's not the obviousness of breaking > > them that helps meditation, but the vow not to that helps. > > > > The Noble Eightfold Path is another useful tool for those of us on the > > path. They can be seen as an explanation of the path towards cessation of > > suffering, as a guideline, and as a description of the behaviour of a > > Buddha. It's broken down to morality, meditation and wisdom and how to > > 'achieve' them. It can be seen that morality leads to successful meditation > > and meditation leads to wisdom (insight into impermanence, no-self and the > > unsatisfactoriness of believing in both). Criticising them as mumbo jumbo > > to me seems no different than to criciicise any classification as the same. > > They might not be ultimate truth, but they're invaluable as a guide and > > explanation of the Dharma. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right; or at least what I meant by "mumbo-jumbo" is indeed > > > Buddhist dogma. Things like 'The Five Precepts' and 'The Noble Eightfold > > > Path'. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>I'm not sure why you always flog this horse about > > > > Buddhism being "Mumbo jumbo". The way of Vipassana is as clear and > > > > concise as any manual on making a pizza. Take a look at the Dhammapada > > > > - where's the mumbo jumbo in that? It's instructions and teachings are > > > > perfectly clear (putting them into practice is another thing). I think > > > > you confuse the rituals and prayers to Buddha by later followers with > > > > the actual teachings of Buddha. I will say, I don't like the word > > > > 'Buddhism' as it implies a series of beliefs. I practice Buddha Dharma, > > > > or simply the Dharma, is much more accurate to my mind and is all that > > > > Vipassana is.<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for > > > > iPhone > > > > > > > > > >
