Mike, I like your explanation of Buddha's teachings in your second paragraph below very much.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], "mike" <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > I kind of hear what you're saying, but you're argument about people being so > literal is like saying people will exploit unemployment benefit, so it' must > be a bad thing. I don't think the 5 precepts, for example, are so arbitrary > either. Remember, they were first mentioned 2,500 years ago and none have > been taken away and none added (for lay people). Surely you have to give > respect, no matter how grudgingly, to such longevity and efficacy. Same with > the 5 Hindrances. You might not like that 'hindrances' gets a capital 'H', > but if you take a look at them - and not just automatically dismiss them - > you'll see they make a lot of practical sense (in relation to meditation). > > The original teaching of Buddha is as far from religion as you can get. > Basically he's saying that reality can be found in our body/mind. It's always > there - our very own laboratory. He discourages the metaphysical; mantras; > creeds; beliefs; other people's insights etc. His Dharma is rational (it's > not always a dirty word) and can easily be experienced if we practice > sincerely and diligently. Yes, a Buddha doesn't need a list to follow like > Chairman Mao's little red book, but not many of us our born as realised > Buddhas. > > Mike > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > Mike, > > > > Okay, maybe 'mumbo-jumbo' is not the right word. Both of these concepts to > > mean something. > > > > What bothers me about things like this is the enumeration. I think a lot > > of people take them too literally. Like believe there are really 5 > > specific precepts, no more no less. The same with the Eightfold Path. Or > > the 10 Commandments. These types of things are for people who can't or > > don't want to take responsibility for their own lives. They feel safer > > depending on someone else's list of Do's and Don't. > > > > Whenever I think of these I always imagine someone carrying around a little > > plastic card in their shirt pocket with the 5 Precepts, and every time they > > need to make a decision about something they have to pull the card out and > > check themselves against The List. > > > > This is the stuff of religion. Religions create dogma and tell people they > > have to memorize and follow it so they can...whatever - go to heaven, > > become enlightened, be re-born into a better life, etc... It's all crap to > > me. > > > > Zen doesn't just give people lists of things they should or should not do, > > or should or should not think about. Zen leads you to experience Buddha > > Nature and then you don't have to worry about any lists like these anymore. > > They're all somebody else's lists anyway. Maybe after realizing Buddha > > Nature you'll make your own list, but probably you won't need a list at all. > > > > It's like Jesus said when asked about all the traditional Jewish laws. He > > basically just said 'you don't need to know all those laws, you just need > > to love one another'. > > > > You don't need any lists, just compassion. And in fact if you don't have > > compassion even following the lists aren't going to help you anyway. > > > > That's my take on it anyway... > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "mike" <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > I'm still confused as to why you would consider these terms mumbo jumbo. > > > For example, 'The 5 Precepts' pin-point the problems we face when we sit > > > own to meditate. Take any one of the precepts (not to harm any living > > > thing; steal; sexual misconduct; lie; intoxication). They're not commands > > > like in Christianity, but they help facilitate meditation because a vow > > > keeps us mindful of not breaking them. It's not the obviousness of > > > breaking them that helps meditation, but the vow not to that helps. > > > > > > The Noble Eightfold Path is another useful tool for those of us on the > > > path. They can be seen as an explanation of the path towards cessation of > > > suffering, as a guideline, and as a description of the behaviour of a > > > Buddha. It's broken down to morality, meditation and wisdom and how to > > > 'achieve' them. It can be seen that morality leads to successful > > > meditation and meditation leads to wisdom (insight into impermanence, > > > no-self and the unsatisfactoriness of believing in both). Criticising > > > them as mumbo jumbo to me seems no different than to criciicise any > > > classification as the same. They might not be ultimate truth, but they're > > > invaluable as a guide and explanation of the Dharma. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right; or at least what I meant by "mumbo-jumbo" is indeed > > > > Buddhist dogma. Things like 'The Five Precepts' and 'The Noble > > > > Eightfold Path'. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>I'm not sure why you always flog this horse about > > > > > Buddhism being "Mumbo jumbo". The way of Vipassana is as clear and > > > > > concise as any manual on making a pizza. Take a look at the > > > > > Dhammapada - where's the mumbo jumbo in that? It's instructions and > > > > > teachings are perfectly clear (putting them into practice is another > > > > > thing). I think you confuse the rituals and prayers to Buddha by > > > > > later followers with the actual teachings of Buddha. I will say, I > > > > > don't like the word 'Buddhism' as it implies a series of beliefs. I > > > > > practice Buddha Dharma, or simply the Dharma, is much more accurate > > > > > to my mind and is all that Vipassana > > > > > is.<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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