Edgar, Rubbish, all rubbish no matter how many times you post it...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > The world of forms is the manifestation of the reality of Buddha Nature. > > The mind creates an additional set of forms which is an internal MODEL of the > external world of forms. > > One needs to clearly understand which forms are in the mind (our cognitive > model of the world) and which in the external world (eg. are intrinsic laws > of nature) > > The Zen picture is realizing these are both part of a single reality that > models itself. > > Zen mind is realizing these forms are all manifestations of their underlying > Buddha Nature and existing within them as an expression of that Buddha > Nature... > > Edgar > > > > On Mar 31, 2013, at 4:49 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Joe, > > > > IMO all concepts (like cause-and-effect) are illusory. The 'exist' in the > > same way all illusions 'exist'. The are created by us (humans, and maybe > > other rational beings too)and superimposed on experience. I assume we do > > this because it gives us a sense of order and therefore control over what > > is undoubtedly pure chaos. > > > > When I use the phrase in single parenthesis 'out there', I mean the > > dualistic illusion that there is an 'out there'. I know many/most of you > > really believe there are what you call 'principals' or 'laws of nature' > > (and now I have to add) 'out there'. You believe these principals or laws > > exist independent of you and that you, the smart fellow that you are, have > > the ability to observe, recognize, separate out, classify and document > > these principals. I don't believe that. I believe we create them, or at > > least some of us who are really, really smart create them and then teach > > them to the rest of us, which of course we all believe on faith. That faith > > is bolstered by our ability to observe the same principals or laws at work > > in our own dualisitic and rationalized perception of our experience. > > > > Kapeesh? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > I've seen you put it like this several times before, and I think you are > > > being a little amiss in how you're saying one small part of this. > > > > > > I don't think you mean the "concept" doesn't exist "out there". > > > > > > I think you mean a kind of functioning that results in what looks to us > > > like cause and effect does not exist out there. > > > > > > By contrast, of course the concept exists: it exists in us, as a concept. > > > Otherwise it would not be a concept for us. Concepts exist nowhere else > > > but in us, so of course we won't find it "out there". > > > > > > But, what about the "functioning" I refer to above? ...the functioning > > > that results in our ascribing cause and effect. I would not say it exists > > > out there as a concept (as I think you would not). I would not say it > > > exists out there as a Principle. I would not say it exists out there as a > > > Law. I think all we can say is that there is a functioning, and that > > > functioning is a VERB, not a noun. It functions. But we do not see > > > "something" functioning, or the mechanics and gears of the functioning. > > > We see instead manifestations or consequences. Consequences of WHAT? When > > > we ask that, "WHAT?", and ANSWER it, this is where we start drawing up > > > phantoms. And we attach to them, if we are not awake. They become our > > > models. It's OK to use the phantoms for our purposes, and emploit them in > > > our skilful means. But attachment to them as something "out there" is the > > > root of suffering. The concept or idea of a self is one of these > > > "things", I know everyone here agrees. > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > I'm not denying that cause-and-effect seems to provide independent > > > > conditioning in the world of forms (illusions), I'm saying like the > > > > world of forms the concept of cause-and-effect is just a projection of > > > > our rational mind. It's not something that exists 'out there' > > > > independent of intellect. > > > > > > > > This is a good example of the question: "If a tree falls in the forest > > > > and no one (human) is there, is there a sound?" No, there isn't. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
